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Message
re: Some thoughts on IQ
Posted on 8/1/25 at 11:53 am to 4cubbies
Posted on 8/1/25 at 11:53 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Ehhhh this reads problematic to me. Does this mean Black Americans all have basically the same IQ? Or all members of any racial/ethnic group all have basically the same IQ?
I believe that being a member of the human species puts one in the same IQ distribution.
I don't think there are significant differences across any group that can't be explained by cultural factors.
Now some individuals are much more intelligent.
But there are no clusters of smarter DNA hanging out in ethnic groups.
quote:
No. I reject this.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8513766/#:~:text=Observational%20studies%20of%20adopted%20children,environment%20on%20their%20developing%20IQs.
Just one of the studies.
2
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:05 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Is IQ measurable at birth/infancy?
There are some new developments re: fetus evaluation. They can tell if there is brain abnormality and the approximate degree. IE, Mr. and Mrs. Smith have 110 IQs and can thus expect a healthy child to be 105-115 when entering school. Modern tests during pregnancy can now detect problems that will effect IQ. IE, 'Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your child will have an IQ under 70 due to this brain problem.' This is resulting in a LOT of parents opting for abortion since the test can now be done in the first trimester.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:13 pm to 4cubbies
quote:You damn sure wouidn't go broke betting that way.
Or a poor Asian most likely will have a higher IQ than an affluent black American?
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:15 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Writes this question AFTER writing
ETA question: are 3-5 points very significant when measuring IQ?
quote:
No. I reject this.
One of the most awesome things to watch is liberal certainty over shite they openly know nothing about.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:16 pm to Narax
quote:
Just one of the studies.
Dude, she categorically "rejected" you then 2 lines later, ADMITTED complete ignorance of the subject!
It's fricking hilarious.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:34 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
Dude, she categorically "rejected" you then 2 lines later, ADMITTED complete ignorance of the subject!
It's fricking hilarious.
I try very hard to keep things I believe and things that I understand in separate categories.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 12:53 pm to Narax
quote:
Just one of the studies.
It is very reminiscent of the Christian theological concept of "the elect." Some people are pre-destined to be smart and others and pre-destined to be dumb.
But we still tell everyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become the next Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs.
edit: If IQ is mostly determined by parents, I wonder how the outliers happen. Like, what environmental factors, or general factors, influence or result in that.
This post was edited on 8/1/25 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:00 pm to Grumpy Nemesis
quote:
You damn sure wouidn't go broke betting that way.
I don't get why people are down voting this.
IQ test scores will show this.
Asian American IQ scores are the highest in the world, some statistics show them at 108, which is higher than all east Asian countries, not to mention the rest of the world.
No matter if one thinks it's better genetics or better culture, we cant just stick our fingers in our ears and ignore facts.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:01 pm to Narax
quote:
I try very hard to keep things I believe and things that I understand in separate categories.
My assumption was that environment influenced IQ more than genetics. I was confronted with evidence to the contrary. I imagine grappling with the realization that one's assumption is incorrect is a pretty common experience.
I was just being silly when I said I reject the study.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:07 pm to Narax
quote:
I don't get why people are down voting this.
downvoting is an emotional response to feeling discomfort.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:13 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
downvoting is an emotional response to feeling discomfort
Discomfort with facts is childish
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:18 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Just the opposite of course.
And it certainly conflicts with our culture of exceptionalism and boot straps.
quote:Based on the Bell Curve, the closer to the mean, the less significant it is
are 3-5 points very significant when measuring IQ?
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:27 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It is very reminiscent of the Christian theological concept of "the elect." Some people are pre-destined to be smart and others and pre-destined to be dumb.
What...
Everyone's brain is fundamentally different, there are more or less neuron connections that organize themselves differently.
Does it really matter if Tao is a math prodigy?
It doesnt make me less that he scored a perfect SAT in math at 8 years old. His IQ score is quite a bit higher than anything I've scored.
I can read his papers, he can write them.
His parents also trained him practically from birth.
But yes real life is cruel, some peoples brains can do more.
quote:
But we still tell everyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become the next Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs.
I'm not telling anyone that, I'm telling them to be the best that they can be.
There is nothing morally good about being smart.
Feynman famously had a high but not super high IQ test scores. I would rather spend a hour talking to him than an hour talking to Tao. He also accomplished far more than Tao probably ever will.
quote:
edit: If IQ is mostly determined by parents, I wonder how the outliers happen. Like, what environmental factors, or general factors, influence or result in that.
Again, there is a base IQ that comes from parents but thats for all humans.
Most humans who score a 130 on an IQ test wont ever come close to being truly a genius.
IQ tests are a handy way to generalize normal intelligence, not abnormal intelligence.
What makes a true genius? No one knows, but like a supreme court justice once said I know it when I see it.
Environment is not going to get you to Tao levels of IQ scores, nor get you to Feynman levels of genius.
Its the brain from birth, but Taos parents had 2 other kids who are both math Olympians.
But none of them are more than just incredibly smart.
Tao's brother Nigel who went through the same intense environment and has the same DNA ingredients as his brother, has an IQ of 180, 50 points less than Terence. Their other brother Trevor is an international chess master with Autism
I've put out how maximizing the environment could lead to 45+ point gains.
That if true would put both of them in the 135 range, but Terence would still be 50 points ahead of them.
But if you reference my model, with the right reaction to the right environment even a 90 IQ potential baby could be a massively successful person who scores into the 120s.
The Tao family is an extreme example of childhood development and also of parents who had beneficial genetics.
That's just life.
But brain power isn't a moral good.
Everyone can always do better for themselves.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:29 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I was just being silly when I said I reject the study.
Lol fair enough, but I always need to watch myself and not let my beliefs cloud my logical models.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:35 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
My assumption was that environment influenced IQ more than genetics. I was confronted with evidence to the contrary. I imagine grappling with the realization that one's assumption is incorrect is a pretty common experience.
The very FIRST thing one should do when they find their immediate assumptions are in conflict with reality is to ask themselves "why were my assumptions so off........what OTHER assumptions exist in my thought processes that caused me to incorrectly assess this particular item?
We don't arrive at our initial assumptions by random chance. They are the result of our overall belief system so, when we find our assumptions to be incorrect on ONE item, it's often because our OVERALL belief system needs adjustment. If we don't recognize this fact, we'll just continue to make bad assumptions.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:43 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It is very reminiscent of the Christian theological concept of "the elect." Some people are pre-destined to be smart and others and pre-destined to be dumb.
The FACT that individuals differ intellectually isn't even disputed. What are you talking about??
quote:No one thinks this. Literally NO ONE. You're arguing against a phantom. Pull yourself you by your bootstraps means to maximize what YOU can be. I'm not very tall. I couldn't be an NBA player. I was relatively fast, but not NFL fast. That's life. But, there were areas I was strong in, and I've done my best to maximize in those areas. That's all ANYONE ever means by that. Sheesh.
But we still tell everyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become the next Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs.
quote:It is.........next.........
edit: If IQ is mostly determined by parents
quote:Um, you used the word "most" in your prior sentence. Do I have to explain to you what "most" means???
I wonder how the outliers happen
quote:Don't confuse IQ with knowledge. I'm short. All the coaching, great parenting, money in the world wasn't gonna make me an NBA player. If you have the brain of a retard, all the great environments in the world isn't gonna help you with quantum physics.
Like, what environmental factors, or general factors, influence or result in that.
HOWEVER.............you can be born 7'2 and athletic but never even see a basketball in your life and you won't be very good at basketball. And, you can be born with Einsteins brain but have your parents die in a car accident, go unadopted, and derail into never learning quantum physics.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:44 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Just the opposite of course.
How does telling someone whose birthright is having a low IQ to pull themselves up by their bootstraps make sense?
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:48 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Simple.
How does telling someone whose birthright is having a low IQ to pull themselves up by their bootstraps make sense?
Exceedingly few people meet their potential. Even geniuses.
So, when someone is faltering, you encourage them to meet THEIR potential, whatever that may be.
Now, that said. The fundamental reality is that there do exist SOME people who, "maximizing their potential" will still equal dismal failure. And, society does have to come up with ways to deal with that because I don't think any of us just want them all to starve.
Alas, ya gotta be careful. You don't want your policies to be so blunt that they DISCOURAGE maximzation.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 1:49 pm to Narax
quote:shite, I've fallen for more than one thing in my life where afterwards, I was like, "frick me, how did I let that get by me"..............It's annoying as goddamned hell!!!!
Lol fair enough, but I always need to watch myself and not let my beliefs cloud my logical models.
Posted on 8/1/25 at 2:20 pm to Narax
quote:
Agreed, there are two types of Mensa people I've encountered, those who are accomplished and you don't need to know they are in Mensa to know they are smart and successful, and those who need to tell you how smart they are since nothing in their life says this person is worth a dog fart.
I'll join the chorus on this one. There are people that are pleasant to converse with, and can satisfy an Intellectual Overexcitement. There are also jerks. That's true in most population sets whether the inclusion factor is High IQ, attainment, wealth, or alumni of SEC schools. There may be correlation to Dabrowski's overexcitements amongst High IQ individuals; however, there is still a world of difference between engaging in discussion in good faith and being a contrarian to try to just find a means to insult people.
quote:
John McWorther and Glenn Lourey mention this often, that it's better to be an A Student at a tier 3 college than to be an F student at a Tier 1 college.
An interesting observation where I'd love to hear more. I don't know the exact findings, but I'm not sure I agree with some of the potential ramifications. For instance, it's never really good to be an F student anywhere. There are lots of reasons one could be an F student, but in general for most academic instituations, if they let you walk through the door, they will have various support systems that help you get to be a not-F student.
Having the choice between being an F student somewhere and a not-F student somewhere else is a bit of false choice. IMHO, the better choice would be:
C student at Tier 1
A- Student at Tier 2; and
A+ student at Tier 3.
If your motivation is based on the Overexcitement, I'd think you would want to maximize the amount of well curated information that you can receive. The C at 1 may be your choice.
If your motivation is glory, then we are not really in exceptionalism anymore, but you'd take the Tier 3. Tier 2 at A- would make sense iff your motivation is a career in that field that requires certain credentialing. That still gets you through the next set of doors.
(Maybe, McWhorter was just tired of the kid who got into Columbia, but just decided to arse-off in his class :)
FWIW, I do posit based on the findings of Terman, et. al. a person that is a jerk is equally likely to be a jerk in all three paths. If they choose C at Tier 1, they will look down their noses at others due to the selectivity. If they choose A+ at 3, then they will lord over others on that measure of attainment. If they choose A- at 2, then they don't have any attainment (on entry or performance), but blame their lack of attainment on an intentional lack of effort.
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