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re: Rand Paul never recovered

Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:44 pm to
Posted by scottydoesntknow
Member since Nov 2023
10870 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:44 pm to
quote:

How will he do that by opposing the actual "more government" we are seeing with tariffs?


The claim that tariffs are “more government” because they’re a tax misses the forest for the trees. Tariffs aren’t just any tax—they’re a strategic tool to level the playing field for American workers and fund the government without leaning on income taxes, which Paul supposedly hates. By opposing Trump’s tariffs, Paul’s inadvertently propping up the status quo: a federal government that’s ballooned out of control while foreign countries exploit us with unfair trade deals.

Let’s look at the numbers since 2011:





Government Growth: Federal spending jumped 87.5% ($3.6T to $6.75T) and debt soared 130% ($14.79T to $33.99T) by 2024. That’s a government addicted to borrowing and printing money, not taxing smartly. Tariffs could bring in ~$100B annually (CBO estimates), offsetting deficits without hitting Americans’ paychecks directly.



House Prices vs. Wages: Median house prices skyrocketed 151.0% ($166,100 to $416,900 by Q1 2025), outpacing wages (44.9% growth) by 106.1 points. Homes now cost 4.96x median income, up from 3.32x. Why? Partly because cheap imports and offshoring gutted manufacturing jobs, keeping wages stagnant. Tariffs protect industries like steel and auto, which could boost wages and make homes more affordable long-term.



Personal Debt: Debt per citizen rose 40.4% ($37,666 to $52,873 by 2024). Families are drowning because wages can’t keep up with costs. Tariffs could revive U.S. jobs, reducing reliance on credit cards (up 44% to $1.21T) by strengthening the middle class.

quote:

All you're doing is explaining the emotional talking points they invested in as NPCs to justify their reversal of support of small government. You're not actually making a logical point in reality.


The “fed gov is too far gone” is the crux of why Paul’s tariff stance is so frustrating. He’s acting like we can politely debate our way to a smaller government while the system’s already a runaway train. Your NPC jab is harsh but fair—Paul’s defenders are parroting libertarian dogma without grappling with reality. The federal government’s a mess, and tariffs are a pragmatic tool to claw back control, not a betrayal of small-government ideals.

Data since 2011 shows the stakes:





Government Growth: Federal debt hit 122% of GDP ($33.99T) in 2024, up from 95% ($14.79T) in 2011. Spending’s up 87.5%, with no end in sight. Tariffs could replace some income taxes, aligning with Paul’s tax-cut rhetoric, but he’s blocking that path.



Birth Rates: Total fertility rate dropped from 1.89 to 1.62 (2011–2023), with births falling from 3.95M to 3.6M. Economic insecurity—tied to job losses from offshoring—plays a role. Tariffs could protect manufacturing, stabilizing communities and encouraging family formation.



Home Affordability: The Housing Affordability Index crashed from 184.6 to 98.1 (2011–2023). Tariffs on Canadian lumber might raise costs short-term, but protecting U.S. industries could boost wages, making homes (now $416,900) more attainable long-term.

Paul’s emotional appeal to “free trade” ignores how NAFTA and China’s WTO entry gutted U.S. manufacturing. His resolution with Kaine protects foreign interests over American workers, contradicting his small-government talk. If the government’s “too far gone,” why fight a policy that strengthens our economy and reduces reliance on foreign goods? That’s not logic—it’s clinging to a purist fantasy while the country struggles. Tariffs aren’t perfect, but they’re a real-world response to a broken system, not an NPC talking point.

quote:

Vague NPC talking points: continued


Paul’s tariff opposition isn’t a bold “piece” of reform—it’s a roadblock to a policy that could actually shift the needle. Tariffs are a concrete step to protect U.S. jobs, fundus government smarter, and counter foreign exploitation, but Paul’s stuck in a theoretical rut, preaching free markets while the real world burns.

Since 2011:





Personal Debt: Up 40.4% to $52,873 per citizen, with auto loans doubling to $1.7T. Tariffs could revive auto manufacturing, boosting wages and easing debt burdens.



House Prices: Up 151.0% vs. wages at 44.9%. Protecting industries like steel could stabilize construction costs long-term, unlike Paul’s plan, which keeps us dependent on imports.



Government Growth: Federal Register pages (regulatory output) grew 7.5% (~81,247 to 87,352). Paul’s Write the Laws Act is fine, but tariffs directly tackle trade imbalances that fuel economic decline, which feeds government bloat.

Paul’s “piece by piece” approach—returning $8.3M from his budget, railing against waste—sounds good but hasn’t dented the 130% debt growth or 87.5% spending spike. Tariffs are a practical “piece” to strengthen the economy and fund government without more borrowing, but Paul’s blocking it for ideological purity. That’s not strategy; it’s posturing. If he’s serious about small government, he should back policies that rebuild America’s economic backbone, not ones that keep us tethered to globalist trade deals.
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
6974 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:46 pm to
quote:

scottydoesntknow


Preach
Posted by scottydoesntknow
Member since Nov 2023
10870 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:48 pm to
quote:

quote:
The problem is that the reality is the practical options don’t match the idealistic desire Rand has.

More government it is, then.

The "conservatives" who actually support smaller government have sure become an endangered species since 2016.



You’re proving his point. Paul’s one of those “endangered” conservatives who’s lost the plot. Since 2016, the GOP base has shifted to prioritize economic strength and American workers over ivory-tower libertarianism, and for good reason. Paul’s tariff opposition shows he’s still stuck in the pre-2016 mindset, waving the small-government flag while ignoring how “free trade” has screwed over the middle class and fueled government bloat.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:50 pm to
quote:

But the US has a means to force the hand of Chinas leadership,

We have many means to do that. We could also invade them or assassinate people or all sorts of silliness that I also wouldn't support.

That is changing the framing of a logical discussion about individual policy preference.

quote:

So even tho you cant vote for their leaders, you can affect their abilities to implement tariffs.

And I have principles, primarily smaller government. I don't want US leaders to increase the size of government to purportedly solve any problem.

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:52 pm to
quote:

In a vacuum it wouldn't’

There we go.

quote:

But obviously you can’t assess these things in your over-simplistic little vacuums.

You're now trying the irrational approach of extrapolating "little vacuums" into your fantastical imagination without any basis in reality.

I'll stick with reality and what actually happened.

quote:

Using the tariff example, a favorable deal between the US and all trading partners is a good thing in part.

It theoretically could be, but you're making all sorts of assumptions in that framing.

Again

You're now trying the irrational approach of extrapolating "little vacuums" into your fantastical imagination without any basis in reality.

quote:

As things sit now, the US is getting very little out if it’s biggest bargaining chip.

And you even have to resort to untruths to try to make this framing

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

The claim that tariffs are “more government”

...is because they literally are more government.

quote:

Tariffs aren’t just any tax—they’re a strategic tool to level the playing field for American workers and fund the government without leaning on income taxes,

You're now playing the imaginary reality game, too.

All taxes are "strategic tools to" [insert the blank with big government fantasies and dreams]

quote:

By opposing Trump’s tariffs, Paul’s inadvertently propping up the status quo: a federal government that’s ballooned out of control while foreign countries exploit us with unfair trade deals.

Federal government "ballooning out of control" means what, exactly?

Spending has nothing to do with tariffs or taxes, for example.

The leviathan our fedgov has become has nothing to do with tariffs or taxes.

Seems you're going for an emotional argument not supported by reality (again).

quote:

while foreign countries exploit us with unfair trade deals.

...and you're using outright lies

quote:

He’s acting like we can politely debate our way to a smaller government

That's a better plan than increasing the size of government on our way to a smaller government (tomorrow, allegedly)

quote:

The federal government’s a mess, and tariffs are a pragmatic tool to claw back control,

How? This makes negative sense.

Do your "stats since 2011" with a devolving economy and SOL that we would face with tariffs and use your imagination-based policy mindset to show those numbers.

Hint: it ain't good.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 12:59 pm to
quote:

Paul’s one of those “endangered” conservatives who’s lost the plot.

No he's maintained principles and isn't engaging in hypocrisy like MAGA NPCs

quote:

Since 2016, the GOP base has shifted to prioritize economic strength

The tariff policy opposes this entirely :lol;

quote:

and American workers

The less productive ones

quote:

. Paul’s tariff opposition shows he’s still stuck in the pre-2016

AKA, he's not a hypocrite.

quote:

while ignoring how “free trade” has screwed over the middle class and fueled government bloat.

a. It has not "screwed over the middle class"
b. It has frick all to do with government bloat
Posted by QboveTopSecret
America
Member since Feb 2018
3495 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:01 pm to


Rand is a devoted follower of the crackpot cult leader Ayn Rand. Kentucky needs to send this John Galt, beta-male to the pasture.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:02 pm to
Yeah who wants that freedom stuff?
Posted by RobbBobb
Member since Feb 2007
34123 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:04 pm to
quote:

In the specific policy/vote, is he supporting more or less government?

He is supporting more govt, because China continues to grow an economic base as we watch ours erode, due to our growing service industry base. You cant fight China with employees that work as baristas, holding a college degree

And AI will eliminate those jobs

Eventually we will be a socialist nation depending on govt handouts, because there is no longer a manufacturing base. That hasnt worked out for the EU
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
475931 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:05 pm to
quote:

He is supporting more govt, because China continues to grow an economic base as we watch ours erode


What a non-responsive, irrelevant comment

Posted by Warfox
B.R. Native (now in MA)
Member since Apr 2017
3827 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:08 pm to
quote:

trump isnt god, jesus rand has always been against tariffs...same with massie. i agree with them in principle but in this case trump is right because the other countries are doing it to us while we pay to keep shipping lanes open, pay for their defense etc etc but dont get mad because someone sticks to the same principles they have always had. especially when in theory they are correct


AND TRUMP IS AGAINT TARIFFS TOO, and has stated such. He wants ZERO TARIFFS ON BOTH SIDES.

Heloooooo?

Unfortunately, we have to play hardball because the other countries don’t want to get off the tit and play fair.
Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
26183 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

In the specific policy/vote, is he supporting more or less government?

Rand and the Democrats just announced their Biden Small (B.S.) Government Border Security Plan: 1. Defund the wall, 2. Eliminate deportations, 3. Open Borders! All they ask in return is B.S. Government Funding for 10's of millions of illegals and their housing, education, healthcare, and social security.
Posted by scottydoesntknow
Member since Nov 2023
10870 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

He’s maintained principles, not hypocrisy like MAGA NPCs?


Principles are worthless if they’re blind to reality. Paul’s stuck on old dogma while the base demands results—jobs, wages, not just rhetoric.
quote:

Tariff policy opposes economic strength :lol;?


Tariffs protect industries gutted by cheap imports. Free trade’s “efficiency” often just means offshoring profits. Look at steel towns pre- and post-tariffs.
quote:

The less productive ones?

Dismissing American workers as “less productive” ignores how globalist policies stacked the deck against them. Not everyone’s cut out for coding.
quote:

AKA, he’s not a hypocrite?


Consistency isn’t a virtue when it means ignoring what’s broken. Free trade’s been a one-way street for too long.
quote:

a. Has not screwed the middle class
?

Tell that to the Rust Belt. Median wages stagnated for decades while corporations cashed in on cheap labor abroad.
quote:

b. Has frick all to do with government bloat?


Trade deficits fund dependency on foreign goods, which bloats budgets to prop up displaced workers. It’s all connected.
Posted by SCLibertarian
Conway, South Carolina
Member since Aug 2013
42006 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

Rand has underran Trump in every election in Kentucky, he needs to accept that.

Because most Americans, even those who claim to be against big government, can't wipe their own arse without a government mandate.
Posted by scottydoesntknow
Member since Nov 2023
10870 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

We have many means to do that. We could also invade them or assassinate people or all sorts of silliness that I also wouldn’t support. That is changing the framing of a logical discussion about individual policy preference.


Comparing tariffs to invasion or assassination is a strawman. Tariffs are a targeted economic tool, not “silliness.” They’ve worked to protect U.S. industries—like steel, which saw 8,700 jobs added post-2018 tariffs. China’s unfair trade practices cost us 2.4M jobs from 2001–2015. Paul’s “logical” stance ignores this, letting foreign exploitation slide while preaching small government.

quote:

And I have principles, primarily smaller government. I don’t want US leaders to increase the size of government to purportedly solve any problem.


Your principles sound nice, but they’re detached from reality. Tariffs don’t “increase government size”—they’re a revenue tool, projected to raise $100B annually (CBO), offsetting deficits without hiking income taxes. Paul’s against those too, right? By opposing tariffs, he’s propping up a system where we borrow $1.9T yearly to fund a bloated government. That’s not smaller government; it’s surrender to the status quo.have many means to do that.

quote:

We could also invade them or assassinate people or all sorts of silliness that I also wouldn’t support. That is changing the framing of a logical discussion about individual policy preference.


Comparing tariffs to invasion or assassination is a strawman. Tariffs are a targeted economic tool, not “silliness.” They’ve worked to protect U.S. industries—like steel, which saw 8,700 jobs added post-2018 tariffs. China’s unfair trade practices cost us 2.4M jobs from 2001–2015. Paul’s “logical” stance ignores this, letting foreign exploitation slide while preaching small government.

quote:

And I have principles, primarily smaller government. I don’t want US leaders to increase the size of government to purportedly solve any problem.


Your principles sound nice, but they’re detached from reality. Tariffs don’t “increase government size”—they’re a revenue tool, projected to raise $100B annually (CBO), offsetting deficits without hiking income taxes. Paul’s against those too, right? By opposing tariffs, he’s propping up a system where we borrow $1.9T yearly to fund a bloated government. That’s not smaller government; it’s surrender to the status quo.
Posted by redneck hippie
Oklahoma
Member since Dec 2008
6410 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:31 pm to
quote:

The "conservatives" who actually support smaller government have sure become an endangered species since 2016.


I just listened to the latest Bari Weiss’ podcast, Honestly, this morning. They were discussing Trump’s first 100 days.

The pro-Trump lady, Batya Unger-Sargon used the term “for the common good” several times. And also kept mentioning “the elites,” and how it was time for the working class to receive the benefits of society.

It was alarming how they were using specific phrases that were commonly associated with Communism and Marx.
Posted by scottydoesntknow
Member since Nov 2023
10870 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:37 pm to
quote:

…is because they literally are more government.


Tariffs are a tax, sure, but they’re not “more government” in the way you imply. They replace reliance on borrowing—$33.99T debt in 2024, up 130% since 2011—with revenue that doesn’t hit paychecks. Paul’s fine with cutting taxes but balks at a tool that funds government without adding bureaucracy.

quote:

You’re now playing the imaginary reality game, too. All taxes are “strategic tools to” [insert the blank with big government fantasies and dreams]


Snark isn’t a rebuttal. Tariffs aren’t a “fantasy”—they’ve revived industries. Post-2018, aluminum jobs grew 3.6%. Unlike income taxes, tariffs target foreign goods, incentivizing U.S. production. Paul’s “small government” stance ignores how free trade fuels deficits that bloat spending.

quote:

Federal government “ballooning out of control” means what, exactly? Spending has nothing to do with tariffs or taxes, for example. The leviathan our fedgov has become has nothing to do with tariffs or taxes.


Wrong. Federal spending’s up 87.5% since 2011 ($3.6T to $6.75T). Trade deficits—$971B in 2023—force government to prop up displaced workers, driving welfare costs. Tariffs could cut that dependency by boosting jobs, but Paul’s too busy preaching to notice.

quote:

…and you’re using outright lies


Name the lie. China’s currency manipulation and subsidies are documented—$300B in unfair trade advantages annually. Paul’s free-trade purity lets that slide, hurting U.S. workers.

quote:

That’s a better plan than increasing the size of government on our way to a smaller government (tomorrow, allegedly)


Debating while debt hits 122% of GDP isn’t a plan; it’s paralysis. Tariffs fund government without borrowing, aligning with Paul’s anti-debt rhetoric. His opposition isn’t principled—it’s stubborn.

quote:

Do your “stats since 2011” with a devolving economy and SOL that we would face with tariffs and use your imagination-based policy mindset to show those numbers. Hint: it ain’t good.


Your “hint” is baseless. Tariffs in 2018 didn’t tank the economy—GDP grew 2.9%. Free trade’s “prosperity” left the Rust Belt jobless while median wages lagged inflation by 20% (2011–2023). Paul’s plan keeps us hooked on imports, not self-reliance.
Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
26183 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:45 pm to
quote:

$300B in unfair trade advantages annually. Paul’s free-trade purity lets that slide, hurting U.S. workers.

Paul will side with Democrats to oppose Trump Tarriffs, but he stayed silent for years as US consumers pay China and EU tariffs. Paying taxes to foreign nations is about as far away from "Small Government" as you can get.

Rand isn't anti-tariff for the sake of Americans; he's just anti-Trump.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14682 posts
Posted on 4/29/25 at 1:50 pm to
quote:

so....was it a stand alone bill?


I’ll let you do the research on when the last stand alone bill was passed.

quote:

was there equal cuts in spending?


Great goal, but if that’s a requirement, there’s no need for Rand to even read the bills. Every bill is a no vote.

quote:

would the wall have helped any during biden admin?


The invasion would have had to come through the gates instead of from all over. That would have helped everyone know the invasion was being allowed by our own government.

quote:

so why are you surprised when the guy who says no new spending and wants stand alone bills votes no on a huge bill that increases spending and contains no off set cuts? so the guy who says we spend too much and we are broke is suddenly wrong for not supporting new spending?


Because we are spending 20+billion every year supporting criminal illegals. This is where it all gets stupid. We can’t afford to spend 5 billion on a wall, but 20-25 billion per year supporting criminals is okay? Make it make sense.

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