re: Pro-lifer struck with cane, shoved by pro-choice demonstrators

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no, using the term “murder” in the context of the Holocaust would not be hyperbole. It WAS illegal under German law, which is one of several reasons that the Nazis hid their actions from the populace and established the Camps in occupied territories rather than on German soil.

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Again a weak grasping of the “legal cloak” to redefine the murder of innocents to legally NOT murder!

In Nazi Germany, the Law was what Hitler said it was! He was the Fuhrer, the Leader, the Dictator. His desire spoken in public and private was the law. Here’s a quick Wikipedia education for your legal argument:
“Hitler ruled Germany autocratically by asserting the Führerprinzip ("leader principle"), which called for absolute obedience of all subordinates. He viewed the government structure as a pyramid, with himself—the infallible leader—at the apex. Party rank was not determined by elections, and positions were filled through appointment by those of higher rank.” ... “While top officials reported to Hitler and followed his policies, they had considerable autonomy.[195] He expected officials to "work towards the Führer" – to take the initiative in promoting policies and actions in line with party goals and Hitler's wishes, without his involvement in day-to-day decision-making.”

So how about murdering the undesirable sub-humans like Jews?
Let’s start with a public declaration of the LAW, Hitler.
Adolf Hitler, quoted in "Hitler," by Joachim Fest, Vintage Books Edition, 1974, p. 679-680:

“Nature is cruel; therefore we are also entitled to be cruel. When I send the flower of German youth into the steel hail of the next war without feeling the slightest regret over the precious German blood that is being spilled, should I not also have the right to eliminate millions of an inferior race that multiplies like vermin?”

Now let’s look at the man in charge of making the leader’s wishes reality, Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler.
Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, October 4 and 6, 1943.
Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 323, and Himmler, Reichsfuehrer-SS - P. Padfield, Henry Holt and Co, NY, 1990, p. 469:

“I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about, "the Jewish race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite clear, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them". And then they come, 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of those who talk this way has watched it, not one of them has gone through it. Most of you know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or 1,000. To have stuck it out and at the same time - apart from exceptions caused by human weakness - to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written.

I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed - and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.”
[This speech was recorded; the magnetic tapes are in the National Archives in Washington, DC]

The Goebbels [Reich Propaganda Minister] Diaries, February 14 1942.
The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, p. 86:

“World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as Bolshevism. The F?hrer once more expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will now go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.“

I could go on for pages. Killing Jews in Nazi Germany was legal and considered a great good!

Your clinging to the holed, ripped, and threadbared “but it’s legal argument” doesn’t protect you from the harsh cold wind of moral reality!

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I objected to your terminology because it is silly, inaccurate and unhelpful. “Anyone who analyzes an ambiguous situation differently than I is a worshipper of evil.”. Good Lord.

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I don’t doubt this in the least. I’m sure that slave owners objected to the “terminology” of the Abolitionist, the Nazis objected to the “terminology” used in Nuremberg, and Pro-Baby Murderers object to the terminology of the pro-life morality arguments.

Murder=“silly”?
Sucking the living limbs off of the living unborn=“inaccurate”?
Try to open the eyes of the immoral=“unhelpful”?

Quoting the words you put in my mouth to accurately reflect my position, “ ‘Anyone who analyzes an ambiguous [purposely clouded with the rotted “legal” argument] situation [AKA murder] differently than I is a worshipper of evil.’. ‘Good Lord.’ [please help me soften the hearts of murder advocates].”

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If the State recognizes that as a Person, then Abortion is manslaughter at the very least and probably even premeditated First Degree Murder.

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Sure. But they don't recognize "that" as a person being aborted. Otherwise, it would be illegal.

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No more, no less. Period. Legally AND morally. You are murdering someone and it is dead wrong.

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That's your subjective view of it.

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You shifted to "life" and bridged that to "human being" with nothing to connect it.

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A fetus is a human being the same way an adolescent is a human being.

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A fetus is a human being the same way an adolescent is a human being.

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No, it isn't.

Exactly when is person-hood established and/or lost?

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I could go on for pages. Killing Jews in Nazi Germany was legal and considered a great good!

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No, it was not. Hitler was an autocrat, and he routinely ignored the written law. The only statute that I have been able to find that was changed to justify his policies was a retroactive law that legalized the killings on Kristallnacht.

I do not justify abortion by the fact that it is not illegal. There are plenty of substantive justifications. You disagree with them, and that is fine. I think your analysis is flawed and simplistic, and you apparently think that mine is evil incarnate. Such is life.

But the fact that is is not illegal (murder!) is simple fact, and asserting otherwise is silly hperbole. Pretend otherwise to your heart's content. It is no secret that I don't place much stock in your views, but you are certainly welcome to hold them.

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AggieHank86

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i see you ran out of ammo in the other thread but here you are still acting like you are pro abortion. interesting

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If somebody at a protest hit you with their cane, does that give you the right to defend yourself and beat the shite out of them?

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No.

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The term “murder” means “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

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funny. you don't even recognize the moral implications that the jurisprudence is based on. why is it wrong to kill another person? in what circumstances is it ok? do all societies agree on this?

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Abortion fails that test on several debatable points

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negative ghost rider. killing someone merely for the sake of convenience is murder and it is wrong in every case.

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Abortion is not unlawful

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which doesn't make it right

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Thus, use of the term “murder” is hyperbole

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uh, no. just because you don't understand the etymology doesn't mean it's hyperbolic

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No, it was not. Hitler was an autocrat, and he routinely ignored the written law. The only statute that I have been able to find that was changed to justify his policies was a retroactive law that legalized the killings on Kristallnacht.

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So when the Gestapo showed up at the residence of a German hiding a Jew, arrested said German, and sent him to a labor camp, all he had to do was flash a pre-Nazi law book and all was well? Come now, who is depending on “simplistic arguments”? Hitler routinely ignored the pre-Nazi written laws because the authority of the Fuhrer made them null and void. In America, Royal and Parliamentary law became null and void. We replaced them with new laws just like Hitler. You can keep making this weak arsed argument that paper law is eternal. Everyone knows it is not.

But you never touch the morality of it!

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I do not justify abortion by the fact that it is not illegal. There are plenty of substantive justifications. You disagree with them, and that is fine. I think your analysis is flawed and simplistic, and you apparently think that mine is evil incarnate. Such is life.

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You have a laser like focus on the “it cannot be murder because it’s legal” defense.
I’d like to see your “plenty of substantial justifications”. I bet most are economic, hence my Ba’al reference.

Yes we disagree, and yes, that is fine. I know you think my analysis is flawed and simplistic. I not surprisingly reject its being flawed, but I agree that it is simplistic!

My simplistic argument is that murder is always immoral, indefensible, and should be (but in this case isn’t) illegal.

I do not think you evil incarnate; I actually think you’re a good human being! But, I state that all humans are sinners, and accept the distinct possibility that I might be a worse sinner than you. I further assert that morality comes from God, and that it trumps law.

The purposeful taking of innocent human life for worldly gain is both murder and immoral.

Abortion is NOT necessarily immoral or evil!
When the mother’s life is truly at risk, she has the moral obligation to protect it. Abortion in this case would be GOOD, tragic and sad, but good.

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But the fact that is is not illegal (murder!) is simple fact, and asserting otherwise is silly hperbole.

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Go back and read my posts. I have readily acknowledged that abortion is legal.
I freely admit that under the “but it’s legal argument” it legally is not murder.

However, murder has another, and I would assert, higher moral definition. I proclaim, abortion except to protect the life of the mother (self defense) morally murder.
I assert that slavery was legal but morally wrong in Antibellum America.
I assert that the Holocaust was legal but morally murder.
I assert that placing babies onto the incandescent hot statue of Ba’al was legal, but morally murder.
I assert that 99.9% of American abortions are legal but morally murder.

I agree wholeheartedly with your quote, “Pretend otherwise to your heart's content. It is no secret that I don't place much stock in your views, but you are certainly welcome to hold them.”