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re: President Trump promises to end birthright citizenship

Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:00 am to
Posted by Klark Kent
Houston via BR
Member since Jan 2008
73351 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:00 am to
quote:

Just because the MAGA echo chamber repeats stupidity that needs correction doesn't mean anything about me. I don't known if you know this, but I don't control that.


how much time do you spend correcting Progressive echo chambers? Say Reddit, Bluesky, DU, etc?


i’d bet none.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:03 am to
quote:

They are “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” that their parents are citizens of.


Incorrect. Just to give a factual basis in Wong Kim Ark

quote:

The facts of this case, as agreed by the parties, are as follows: Wong Kim Ark was born in 1873, in the city of San Francisco, in the state of California and United States of America, and was and is a laborer. His father and mother were persons of Chinese descent, and subjects of the emperor of China. They were at the time of his birth domiciled residents of the United States, having previously established and are still enjoying a permanent domicile and residence therein at San Francisco. They continued to reside and remain in the United States until 1890, when they departed for China; and, during all the time of their residence in the United States, they were engaged in business, and were never employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China. Wong Kim Ark, ever since his birth, has had but one residence, to wit, in California, within the United States and has there resided, claiming to be a citizen of the United States, and has never lost or changed that residence, or gained or acquired another residence; n d neither he, nor his parents acting for him, ever renounced his allegiance to the United States, or did or committed any act or thing to exclude him therefrom.


quote:

The question presented by the record is whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who at the time of his birth are subjects of the emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution: 'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.'


quote:

You do understand it was made up by a SCOTUS justice, correct?


Wrong. This is Wong Kim Ark from 1898. A full decision and not "a footnote".
This post was edited on 12/9/24 at 7:04 am
Posted by Lutcher Lad
South of the Mason-Dixon Line
Member since Sep 2009
7140 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:03 am to
Should've been done long ago...no need for this these days. It only fuels the hoard of illegals rushing into our country so they can producer anchor babies and guarantee their place here.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:05 am to
quote:

how much time do you spend correcting Progressive echo chambers? Say Reddit, Bluesky, DU, etc?

They have made it all but impossible to do so with their formatting. You can't even post multiple times on DU until a long membership period (I tried years ago). I've always rejected Reddit's up/down vote system for this reason (it fosters groupthink and has evolved as I predicted as a regulatory and exclusionary tool to thwart discussion).

Bluesky

I'm not a social media cuck.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135764 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:08 am to
quote:

These questions have already been answered in Wong Kim Ark.
No SFP, they weren't. If they had been, I wouldn't have raised them.

If they had been addressed, the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 would not have been necessary. But they weren't, so it was.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135764 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:10 am to
quote:

This is Wong Kim Ark from 1898. A full decision and not "a footnote".
Parents were here legally, thus unquestionably under US jurisdiction.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:12 am to
quote:

Again, for a quarter century subsequent to the 1898 ruling, aboriginal Americans were excluded from what you imply is a very straight-forward birthright. If it were so straight-forward, that should not have been an issue.


quote:

The only adjudication that has been made by this court upon the meaning of the clause 'and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' in the leading provision of the fourteenth amendment, is Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U. S. 94, 5 Sup. Ct. 41, in which it was decided that an Indian born a member of one of the Indian tribes within the United States, which still existed and was recognized as an Indian tribe by the United States, who had voluntarily separated himself from his tribe, and taken up his residence among the white citizens of a state, but who did not appear to have been naturalized or taxed or in any way recognized or treated as a citizen, either by the United States or by the state, was not a citizen of the United States, as a person born in the United States, 'and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' within the meaning of the clause in question.

That decision was placed upon the grounds that the meaning of those words was 'not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance'; that by the constitution, as originally established, 'Indians not taxed' were excluded from the persons according to whose numbers representatives in congress and direct taxes were apportioned among the several states, and congress was empowered to regulate commerce, not only 'with foreign nations,' and among the several states, but 'with the Indian tribes'; that the Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states, but were alien nations, distinct political communities, the members of which owed immediate allegiance to their several tribes, and were not part of the people of the United States; that the alien and dependent condition of the members of one of those tribes could not be put off at their own will, without the action or assent of the United States; and that they were never deemed citizens, except when naturalized, collectively or individually, under explicit provisions of a treaty, or of an act of congress; and, therefore, that 'Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of, and owing immediate allegiance to, one of the Indian tribes (an alien, though dependent, power), although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more 'born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' within the meaning of the first section of the fourteenth amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States of ambassadors or otehr public ministers of foreign nations.' And it was observed that the language used, in defining citizenship, in the first section of the civil rights act of 1866, by the very congress which framed the fourteenth amendment, was 'all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.' 112 U. S. 99-103, 5 Sup. Ct. 44-46.


Now if you want to see an aggressive interpretation of the 14A, look at this referenced dissent from that case:

quote:

Mr. Justice Harian and Mr. u stice Woods, dissenting, were of opinion that the Indian in question, having severed himself from his tribe and become a bona fide resident of a state, had thereby become subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, within the meaning of the fourteenth amendment,
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:13 am to
quote:

If they had been addressed, the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 would not have been necessary.


I literally just posted how this assumption is wrong and was, in fact, directly addressed by Wong Kim Ark.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:20 am to
quote:

Parents were here legally, thus unquestionably under US jurisdiction.


That is not how the case defines the terms.


quote:

The real object of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, in qualifying the words 'all persons born in the United States' by the addition 'and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the national government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases,—children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation, and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign state,—both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law, from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Coke, 1, 18b; Cockb. Nat. 7; Dicey, Confl. Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 155; 2 Kent, Comm. 39, 42.


The court is specific. The words of the 14A exclude 2 classes of children:

Those born to diplomats.

Those born to soldiers in an active campaign on US soil or to occupied US citizens during an active war campaign and occupation on US soil.

The court explains its historical precedent to both scenarios:

1. Children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation:

quote:

In U. S. v. Rice (1819) 4 Wheat. 246, goods imported into Castine, in the state of Maine, while it was in the exclusive possession of the British authorities during the lase war with England were held not to be subject to duties under the revenue laws of the United States, because, as was said by Mr. Justice Story in delivering judgment: 'By the conquest and military occupation of Castine, the enemy acquired that firm possession which enabled him to exercise the fullest rights of sovereignty over that place. The sovereignty of the United States over the territory was, of course, suspended, and the laws of the United States could no longer be rightfully enforced there, or be obligatory upon the inhabitants who remained and submitted to the conquerors. By the surrender, the inhabitants passed under a temporary allegiance to the British government, and were bound by such laws, and such only, as it chose to recognize and impose. From the nature of the case, no other laws could be obligatory upon them; for, where there is no protection or allegiance or sovereignty, there can be no claim to obedience.' 4 Wheat


2. Children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign state:

quote:

In the great case of The Exchange (1812) 7 Cranch. 116, the grounds upon which foreign ministers are, and other aliens are not, exempt from the jurisdiction of this country, were set forth by Chief Justc e Marshall in a clear and powerful train of reasoning, of which it will be sufficient, for our present purpose, to give little more than the outlines. The opinion did not touch upon the anomalous case of the Indian tribes, the true relation of which to the United States was not directly brought before this court until some years afterwards, in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831) 5 Pet. 1; nor upon the case of a suspension of the sovereignty of the United States over part of their territory by reason of a hostile occupation, such as was also afterwards presented in U. S. v. Rice, above cited. But in all other respects it covered the whole question of what persons within the territory of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
This post was edited on 12/9/24 at 7:25 am
Posted by SammyTiger
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
78347 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:27 am to
1. even by that definition jurisdiction isn’t “unlimited” and none of the examples you brought up make any sense. James Earl Ray commited a crime in the united states and then fled to London and the UK extradited him. Idk if anyone considered jurisdiction with Osama Bin Laden. We shot him in the face in a cave in Pakistan.
There is almost no arguement that Brian Thompson’s killer wouldn’t be subject to US Jurisdiction for a crime he committed in the US short of some insane exception.

2. Native Americans on tribal land are subject to their own jurisdiction and tribal law is its own thing.

3. “ That is debatable. The 14th Amendment is poorly written with imprecise and/or superfluous language.”

not very textualist of you bro.

Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135764 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:30 am to
quote:

I literally just posted how this assumption is wrong
If you don't offer the courtesy of a link or cut and paste, I'm not going on an Easter Egg hunt to find a post of yours. If your claim is the Snyder Act was completely unnecessary, that is a bizarre assertion, and I'm being very polite putting it that way.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:35 am to
quote:

If you don't offer the courtesy of a link or cut and paste,

I literally quoted from the ruling in this post

Text of the case
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135764 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:36 am to
quote:

That is not how the case defines the terms.
... and therein lies the rub. The issue was not one of definition, it was one which simply went unaddressed.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297963 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:37 am to
quote:

Should've been done long ago...no need for this these days.


Just curious, who is going to work these hundreds of thousands of factory assembly line jobs y'all think are coming back because of tariffs?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:46 am to
quote:

The issue was not one of definition

No that's exactly what it is, and Wong Kim Ark speaks to the definitions with specificity. The court specifically addressed what "subject to the jurisdiction" means with a historical and textual analysis (as a contemporary of the time when the Amendment was passed no less).

quote:

it was one which simply went unaddressed.

It wasn't directly addressed because it didn't need to be, as he clearly falls outside of the clear exclusions of the 14A.

Unless you're one of the 2 (3 if you want to separate Indians) classes of persons, then birthright citizenship is available to you. Illegal aliens fall outside of the listed classes, so their children are "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US and birthright citizenship is available for them.
Posted by wackatimesthree
Member since Oct 2019
10739 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:46 am to
quote:


I imagine 95%+ understand it's the law and accepted as much, with Supreme Court precedent.


You mean like Roe V Wade was?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467462 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:48 am to
quote:

You mean like Roe V Wade was?


I'd hope more than 95% of people could accurately summarize the law when Roe v. Wade was controlling, as it was much more popular to discuss than this issue.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297963 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:49 am to
quote:

2. Native Americans on tribal land are subject to their own jurisdiction and tribal law is its own thing.


It sure dont work.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135764 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:51 am to
quote:

Just curious, who is going to work these hundreds of thousands of factory assembly line jobs y'all think are coming back because of tariffs?
Did you see the 60 Minutes interview? Did you catch the multifaceted rationale for tariffs?
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297963 posts
Posted on 12/9/24 at 7:54 am to
quote:

Did you catch the multifaceted rationale for tariffs?


No need.

Economics explains why they will fail. Did Joe's tariffs spark economic growth?
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