re: Pope: “You ain’t pro life”.

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The Vatican is in independent country and the walls have been there for centuries.

You want them to tear down those walls? If so, explain why.

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America is an independent country you frickwit.

And you don't need to tear down the walls, just install a few gates so undocumented immigrants can come and go as they please. You don't want to be inhumane and keep people out. I wonder what the racial makeup of the Vadicant is. Since diversity is our strength, maybe they should be diversifying.

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I agree with the pope. This is the Catholic doctrine.

Being pro-life is not exclusive to abortion. Being for the inhuman treatment of people or being for the death penalty is not aligned with the Church's teachings.

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At best, Leo is ignorant as to what's happening re: the deportation of illegals from the US, and at worst he is aware but being political in his comments. And for the leader of the Catholic church to suggest, directly or indirectly, some sort of moral equivalence between the actual murder of 75 million unborn children and the possibility that there may be inhumane treatment of illegals as they are deported from the US is, in my opinion, immoral.

Either Leo is purposefully de-emphasizing the Church's objection to abortion or he's legit retarded. Hard to see his comments any other way.

I'll go a step further. If over the last several decades the Catholic church walked its talk regarding abortion - abortion resulting in the murder of 75 million unborn babies worldwide per year - why has the church spent one ounce of political capital or one dollar on anything other than fighting the scourge of abortion? Just my humble opinion, and I acknowledge I've not spent a single second being pope - but if the weight of a billion murdered children the last dozen years fell on the shoulders of the last few popes the way it would me, the world would not have heard frick all about my opinions on climate change, the treatment of illegals, guns/gun laws, etc. I would spend every day and commit every church resource to the abortion battle, where if we saved just 10% of those aborted the last dozen years, we could populate the 15th largest country in the world with the saved.

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America is an independent country you frickwit.

And you don't need to tear down the walls, just install a few gates so undocumented immigrants can come and go as they please. You don't want to be inhumane and keep people out. I wonder what the racial makeup of the Vadicant is. Since diversity is our strength, maybe they should be diversifying.

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The USA should also have walls.

I'm sensing a lot of Judgment and Condemnation coming from you. Aren't Christians called to be Charitable and not Judgmental?

Are you Judging the Vatican here? Seems so to me.

You sense that I'm out-numbered here, so you are happy to fight. SO brave of you.

The RCC opposes the notion that Govts should execute people for crimes and will work to end the Death Penalty across the Globe.

This can be argued to be a "change" but it can also be argued that it is a "clarification".

If you have a personal animus towards the RCC, you will choose to attack this clarification, not because you are being Charitable, as Christians are called to be, but because you want to weaken the RCC. Let's just be honest and say that your objective is basic Anti Catholicism because you don't like the RCC and your aim is to weaken it as best you can.

You'll have to ask yourself - is this a Sinful objective. Are you not doing the work of Satan by using his tactics of Accusing and Distorting truth?

Here's the quote from the Catechism:

"Direct Quote (CCC 2267, post-2018):

"Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good. Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption. Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that 'the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,' and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide."

How about "judge not lest ye be judged"?

You are being Judgmental AND you are being Accusatory (which is Satan's work) while at the same time promoting distortion.

I've quoted the RCC's exact words on this topic of the Death Penalty. I don't see anything wrong with this position. I may disagree with it and you may disagree with it, but, you are Hell bent on Judging and Condemnation, based on your distorted view and your prejudiced animus against the RCC, which is well known.

These words in the Catechism are not some major Theological change in RCC doctrine. I would argue that it's a simple clarification on a topic in which the Church was previously silent.

The Church does not say that if I am Pro Death Penalty, I'm being Sinful. It seems to leave the question open to the individual and to the Governments.

What's so bad about a Christian Church coming out with a public doctrine that opposes the idea that a Govt should be able to condem people to death?

IMHO you aren't approaching your Judgment from a standpoint of fairness because you failed to READ the Catechism's words BEFORE you decided to Judge those very words.

Does that sound fair to you? That a person can judge and reach a conclusion on a point of issue without even informing himself first on that topic? Does that sound like what those Bible quotes that you provided mean?

Judge and Pre-Judge. You have Pre-Judged, not Judged, and there is your folly and Sin.

Foo, Christians are called upon to be Charitable, and when it comes to your behavior and posts about the RCC here on Political Talk, IMHO, you are here to be the opposite of Charitable. You have a deep animus towards the RCC, and this motivates your behavior here on PT.

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I don't believe that the RCC implemented the death penalty, but certainly tolerated it. AND the RCC still tolerates it.

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Why is it tolerated if it is immoral? And how is it tolerated if there is active teaching against it?

And yes, the RCC did implement it. They condemned heretics and worked with the civil magistrates to have those heretics killed. Some examples are as follows:

Pope Innocent III urged northern French nobles to “exterminate the heretical pestilence” of the Albigensians, resulting in thousands killed in the 1200s.

Pope Gregory IX started the inquisitions in the 1200s, authorizing civil authorities to kill unrepentant heretics.

Pope Paul III established another inquisition in response to the Protestant Reformation, which was charged with rooting out Protestant heresy and handed such heretics over to the state for execution. Thousands of Protestants were burned, hanged, or otherwise executed in partnership with the RCC.

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Can you quote the Catechism for us so that we can see how you can argue that it's a "change"? Did you even READ the relevant portion of the Catechism before you came here to Accuse and to Judge, Foo? NO. You didn't.

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Of course I read it. I always try to read relevant portions of the catechism before responding to you about RCC doctrine. I know what you're going to say ahead of time because you don't typically provide your own arguments but merely quote from either the catechism or link to an article from Catholic Answers.

You quote the relevant section below so there is no need for me to quote it for you.

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I don't think you can say that the Church was an Advocate of State Execution in the past. Perhaps the Church has clarified the Doctrine and made clear what the Church believes about Govt execution.

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Oh the RCC was certainly an advocate for state execution for the past. There were thousands of "heretics" executed as part of the inquisition and response to the Reformation. Not only were such executions not condemned by the RCC, but those "heretics" were handed over to the state for that very purpose.

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Maybe this is a good thing. How much more time do we have before Governments of the world will be executing Christians again?

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An abuse of a thing doesn't mean that thing is bad. The RCC has said that the death penalty, in itself, is a bad thing because it is an attack on the dignity of humans.

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Here's the exact words of the Church: "the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person."

What is so terrible about that? What is so terrible about any Church being opposed to any Govt's right to execute and kill prisoners?

You may disagree with the Church here, fine. But what is so terrible about these words that I have just quoted to you?

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What's terrible about those words is that they are not true and they contradict God's word.

The testimony of the Scriptures is that God set the standard of blood for blood as justice (Gen. 9:6). God gave that authority to Moses and the nation of Israel to administer justice, including specific and direct commands to use the death penalty for certain offenses (Ex 21:12; Lev 20:10; Deut 13:5).

If God commands the use of the death penalty, then it cannot be sinful, as God does not command what is sinful. To say that the death penalty is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of a person is to say that God commanded such attacks in the Old Testament, and Jesus and Paul accepted such attacks as an acceptable duty of the state.

I think it's terrible because the RCC binds consciences against the Scriptures, and it has contradicted its own actions in history.

Our pastors talked about this last week. But he is not a crazy progressive so he said they broke the law and have to pay the consequences.

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How about "judge not lest ye be judged"?

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Yep, I agree with that as Jesus states it in its full context. You should read the rest of that quote and maybe you'll see that Jesus isn't talking about any judgements at all, but hypocritical judgements. He goes on to say that after you've addressed the hypocritical sin in your own heart (the log in your own eye), you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. In other words, Jesus said you're free to judge and accuse in accordance with God's standard of truth, but you should ensure your conscience is clear through repentance, first.

I suggest you spend less time on Catholic Answers and more time reading the Bible so you can understand these things before coming to me.

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You are being Judgmental AND you are being Accusatory (which is Satan's work) while at the same time promoting distortion.

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I gave several Scripture references where Christians are supposed to judge and accuse when it is appropriate.

Satan's problem is not judgement, but false judgement; not accusation, but false accusation.

And while we're at it, the RCC makes judgements and accusations all the time. Each condemnation of sin is a judgement. Each accusation of sin is an accusation. Each anathema in all the encyclicals and canons are judgements. Perhaps you should take the log out of your own eye (RCC judgements and accusations) before examining the speck in my eye.

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I've quoted the RCC's exact words on this topic of the Death Penalty. I don't see anything wrong with this position. I may disagree with it and you may disagree with it, but, you are Hell bent on Judging and Condemnation, based on your distorted view and your prejudiced animus against the RCC, which is well known.

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My views on the RCC are not distorted but informed by Scripture. I wouldn't dare to say that I disagree with the Bible, and yet you claim the RCC as your authority and say that you disagree with something it teaches (the death penalty). Why is that? How can you disagree with it if the RCC is the infallible judge?

If the RCC reformed itself in accordance with the Scriptures, I would no longer condemn it. I'm not prejudicial against the RCC because of some arbitrary reason, but because I believe she has condemned the Gospel and teaches false doctrines that lead people astray from the truth of God's word.

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These words in the Catechism are not some major Theological change in RCC doctrine. I would argue that it's a simple clarification on a topic in which the Church was previously silent.

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There were nearly 1,000 years of support from the RCC prior to it officially adopting an anti-death penalty position. Thousands of lives were taken by the RCC-submitted state through the centuries via crusades, inquisitions, and responses to movements like the Hussites and the Reformers. There was plenty of time to condemn such actions but there was no reason to do so because the RCC benefited from it.

And whether or not the issue is minor in your opinion, I believe every teaching that goes against the Scriptures is a major departure that should be condemned.

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The Church does not say that if I am Pro Death Penalty, I'm being Sinful. It seems to leave the question open to the individual and to the Governments.

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It doesn't. It is an authoritative change that states that given the change in society, that it is immoral to support the death penalty when (in the RCC's opinion) it isn't needed. The change in the language was intended to recognize that changes in society allow for other methods of addressing crime so that human dignity can be preserved without ending a life. That's why it says "the death penalty is inadmissible". Inadmissible means not allowed. The death penalty isn't allowed. Therefore, if you disagree, you are not in alignment with the teaching of the RCC and you are obliged to conform your thinking.

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What's so bad about a Christian Church coming out with a public doctrine that opposes the idea that a Govt should be able to condem people to death?

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It's against the Scriptures.

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IMHO you aren't approaching your Judgment from a standpoint of fairness because you failed to READ the Catechism's words BEFORE you decided to Judge those very words.

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I didn't fail to read them. I read them. I even read a Catholic Answers article on it.

It doesn't matter, though, because I'm not beholden to the false teachings of Rome. I compare what she says to the Bible.

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Does that sound fair to you? That a person can judge and reach a conclusion on a point of issue without even informing himself first on that topic? Does that sound like what those Bible quotes that you provided mean?

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You're mistaken. I did read about it before commenting.

Perhaps you should take the log out of your own eye: you are accusing me of not informing myself before commenting (judging me), but you have jumped to a false conclusion before understanding if I even read about it (I did).

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Judge and Pre-Judge. You have Pre-Judged, not Judged, and there is your folly and Sin.

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No, I judged. I take what was written and compare it to the Scriptures and find that the teaching is false.

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Foo, Christians are called upon to be Charitable, and when it comes to your behavior and posts about the RCC here on Political Talk, IMHO, you are here to be the opposite of Charitable. You have a deep animus towards the RCC, and this motivates your behavior here on PT.

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I believe I have been very charitable considering how adamantly I oppose the false teaching it promotes. I seek to understand what exactly is being taught, which isn't common these days.

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The USA should also have walls.

I'm sensing a lot of Judgment and Condemnation coming from you. Aren't Christians called to be Charitable and not Judgmental?

Are you Judging the Vatican here? Seems so to me.

You sense that I'm out-numbered here, so you are happy to fight. SO brave of you.

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Yep, I'm calling the Vatican hypocritical.

Why are you assuming I'm a Christian?

I'm actually in the process of listening to the Bible cover to cover right now. Currently I'm in Chronicles. Up until this point in the old testament there are many instances of giving criteria where one is to be put to death. There's also some mixed messaging in regards to borders. My basic understanding is that foreigners are welcome but do not get certain privileges that people of the land possess. There's also people of other nations that are looked down on and are told not to marry their women because they will influence you negatively. Just my $.02