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re: Pope, we must avoid rigid ideologies
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:16 pm to Revelator
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:16 pm to Revelator
quote:
Pope, we must avoid rigid ideologies
The Roman Catholic Church has always been set up to seamlessly transition into a one world religion. It has never been the true, original Christian Church.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:19 pm to Revelator
The Catholic Church never had a rigid ideology, except show me the money. Forgiveness has a price tag.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:20 pm to Stitches
quote:Technically he moved them to their own section between the Old and New Testaments of his German translation of the Bible. He thought they were useful books but not inspired, like many Protestants view them today.
Luther who removed them from his German translation
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:21 pm to Zarkinletch416
quote:
What can we do to fight this threat? Pray the Rosary.
Two unscriptural practices rolled into one.
Praying in vain repetition like the heathens. And the worshipping of Mary instead of God.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:30 pm to FooManChoo
Ehhh, there are scriptures that support faith being a requisite, but none of those teach faith alone.
In fact, the only place where scripture says "faith alone", is in James 2:24 where the inspired author tells us we are not justified by faith alone.
I would say it depends on how you define faith though. Are we talking about an intellectual assent to the teachings of the Gospel? Are we talking about faith working through love that Paul talks about, and which produces good works?
If the former, this is easy believism, contradicts scripture (and sola scriptura), and is a false doctrine.
If the latter, I agree that this type of faith saves. This is the faith that Luther referenced when he discerned his doctrine of Sola Fide, and is why Luther was also a strict adherent to baptismal regeneration.
I would say a more biblical explanation for salvation is we are saved by Grace alone.
In fact, the only place where scripture says "faith alone", is in James 2:24 where the inspired author tells us we are not justified by faith alone.
I would say it depends on how you define faith though. Are we talking about an intellectual assent to the teachings of the Gospel? Are we talking about faith working through love that Paul talks about, and which produces good works?
If the former, this is easy believism, contradicts scripture (and sola scriptura), and is a false doctrine.
If the latter, I agree that this type of faith saves. This is the faith that Luther referenced when he discerned his doctrine of Sola Fide, and is why Luther was also a strict adherent to baptismal regeneration.
I would say a more biblical explanation for salvation is we are saved by Grace alone.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:39 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:39 pm to Stitches
quote:
I mean, I would argue that Sedevacantism is Protestantism.
Whut?
By virtue that they don't think the last 6 popes are popes, sure. But Sedevacantists are beyond Trad Catholics and have a much more rigid view of the world, Christianity and Catholocism. And they often give no thought to what others think.
They would say all Protestants are going to hell for instance. All. No question.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:42 pm to Stitches
quote:For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Eph. 2:8-10
Ehhh, there are scriptures that support faith being a requisite, but none of those teach faith alone.
In fact, the only place where scripture says "faith alone", is in James 2:24 where the inspired author tells us we are not justified by faith alone.
There are many texts I could use but this is the simplest one. Here, Paul contrasts grace and faith with works. Works are those things we do that we could boast in ("I saved myself") and grace is what God does for us. We are saved by the grace of God alone, by the gift of faith (faith rests upon and receives God's promises, and this is a gift given to dead sinners whom God makes alive, as Paul mentions in the verses leading up to this passage).
Works have their place in the Christian life and it's explained in verse 10. We are not saved by works, but works are what we have been saved to perform.
Protestants don't (or shouldn't) deny the importance of good works in the Christian life. What we deny is the Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship of good works to our salvation. We believe that God's grace is the root of our salvation and good works are the fruit of our salvation.
ETA:
quote:I believe that there are three elements to faith that are all necessary: knowledge, assent, and trust. Trust is the element that differentiates one of God's elect from anyone else (like Satan and his devils that know and assent to who Jesus is yet do not trust in Him).
I would say it depends on how you define faith though. Are we talking about an intellectual assent to the teachings of the Gospel? Are we talking about faith working through love that Paul talks about, and which produces good works?
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:48 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Paul contrasts grace and faith with works.
Works of the Law, not good works of Grace. The Catholic position isn't that we must do good works in order to be saved. This is Pelagianism, which the Catholic church declared a heresy in the 4th century.
The Catholic position is that good works are a testament to saving faith, and by cooperating with them, we can grow in justification (sanctification for prots).
quote:
What we deny is the Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship of good works to our salvation.
quote:
We believe that God's grace is the root of our salvation and good works are the fruit of our salvation.
This is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. The disagreement is over whether or not justification is a process or a one-time event, and by extension, whether or not salvation is secure (the P in TULIP).
ETA: specific to initial justification, I believe the disagreement is one of semantics honestly.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:49 pm to Stitches
quote:
there are scriptures that support faith being a requisite, but none of those teach faith alone.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh
Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:52 pm to Revelator
quote:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Works of the Law, not works of Grace.
quote:
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh
Works of the Law, not works of Grace.
quote:
Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them
Works of the Law, not works of Grace.
quote:
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
Works of the Law, not works of Grace.
quote:
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
Works of the Law, not works of Grace.
Works of the Law never saved anyone. That's why needed Jesus.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 12:53 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Protestants like myself keep telling Catholics like you that the ultimate divide between us is about ultimate authority: does the final authority rest with God and His word, or with the church? Protestants say it rests with God in His word while Catholics say--either in word or in practice--that it's the church.
Of course Catholic believe God is the ultimate authority. Please resist the urge to exaggerate as people like Revelator will be easily deceived.
The news of the day (many Bishops around the world have told Francis they will not implement his directive)
Attest to this fact.
But
Most of what you say in the rest of you text is perfectly logical and understandable.
Of course I read and judge the actions of my church with much decernment and study.
I agree that the current leadership is not to be trusted.
The question is, does one stay within the church Christ founded or go somewhere else? “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”
We must all follow Christ first. I agree with you. We must follow Christ wherever he leads us.
I believe the Protestant faith provides a great service to the world in many areas. I also believe that it was the sinfulness of those leading the CC that lead to the reformation. The divisions in the world are the result of sin. And you are correct Priest are not any better than the average person.
Saint Paul says “ I work out my salvation with fear and trembling “
“For fear of after having preached to you that I myself will be disqualified”
Humility, prayer, love.
I hope to meet you on the other side.
God bless you for your witness to Christ.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:09 pm to BamaCoaster
quote:
guess truth has to morph with the times?!
No, but religion/church does.
Actually, if you take the time to read the Word of GOD, "religion/church is the ONE THING that should NEVER morph with the times.
Are you suggesting that the church should mislead people to get them to attend before telling them the actual laws of the Holy of Holies? That's a blatant Marxist tactic.
I cannot fathom people suggesting that the church "change with the times" when the Bible clearly states that there will be "a great falling away" in the end times. Those loyal to GOD should not subscribe to an idea that pushes the church itself farther away from the Ten Commandments. The "great falling away" is coming no matter what, and the church, no matter how much support it loses, should stand strong and hold fast instead of contributing to the decay of society and normalcy.
The church is the last respite of the spiritually embattled. Those who seek to change the church, are actively seeking to utterly destroy it.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:09 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
The question is, does one stay within the church Christ founded or go somewhere else? “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” We must all follow Christ first. I agree with you. We must follow Christ wherever he leads us.
The Church isn’t some organization or denomination, it’s the body of believers universal. Jesus said,” where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in the midst.”
Surely Jesus wouldn’t show up to a set of believers that aren’t a part of the body of Christ.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:11 pm to TigerAxeOK
quote:
I cannot fathom people suggesting that the church "change with the times" when the Bible clearly states that there will be "a great falling away" in the end times.
So many will fall away in the last days that Jesus asked this question,” when I return, will I find faith on the earth?”
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:19 pm to AUCom96
quote:.. my catholic Priest referred to them as “feel good” churches…
Swaying around to pop bands at church?
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:19 pm to Stitches
quote:
Ehhh, there are scriptures that support faith being a requisite, but none of those teach faith alone.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:21 pm to Hopeful Doc
Can't think of any or don't want to acknowledge them?
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:22 pm to lovinLSU
quote:
my catholic Priest referred to them as “feel good” churches…
As opposed to feel bad churches?
I’m not one into crazy worship music, but I don’t believe a church can be judged simply by its music.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:26 pm to Stitches
quote:Yes, and Rome has adopted a semi-pelagian view that while man cannot save himself entirely, God gives man a jump start through prevenient grace and then man cooperates from then on. That's called synergistic justification. Protestants (at least Reformed Protestants) believe in monergistic justification, whereby our justification is done entirely by the gracious work of God towards man.
Works of the Law, not good works of Grace. The Catholic position isn't that we must do good works in order to be saved. This is Pelagianism, which the Catholic church declared a heresy in the 4th century.
quote:If all Catholics were saying is that good works testify to a saving faith that God gives and sustains, then I could get onboard with that. But no, that's not what is taught.
The Catholic position is that good works are a testament to saving faith, and by cooperating with them, we can grow in justification (sanctification for prots).
As you pointed out, Catholicism conflates justification and sanctification. Justification, then, isn't the one-time act of God's declaration and imputation of Christ's righteousness to our account (while declaring us not guilty of sin), but the one-time act along with the ongoing actions of cooperation that man does. It's my understanding that Rome teaches essentially that God does the initial saving but that man has to keep himself saved.
The Biblical view is that God both justifies and sanctifies us by His Spirit, and that if we are justified, we will be sanctified, which will show itself by improved conformity to God's commands in the lives of the Christian.
quote:Exactly, which is why Rome teaches synergism. Man has to continue to cooperate through good works in order to be forgiven of the sins he accrues to his account after the initial justification and attain positive righteousness on his own account.
This is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. The disagreement is over whether or not justification is a process or a one-time event, and by extension, whether or not salvation is secure (the P in TULIP).
The Reformed view is that God does the saving, the sanctifying, and the preserving until the end. God gives us new natures that are not just capable of believing and trusting, but will certainly believe and trust in Christ's work. When we naturally respond to the effectual call (because that's what it is; it's effectual), we are justified by having Christ's righteousness imputed to us (we are only declared righteous. We are not actually righteous at that time), and we will be kept or preserved in the faith until we are glorified in heaven.
Because we believe all of these acts are God's doing in us and not what we do in ourselves, we do not add "works" (of grace or anything else) to the category of salvation. Faith alone receives Christ's righteousness on our account and God enables us to put sin to death and obey Him more and more (though not perfectly in this life).
So yes, we have a different understanding of justification. Protestants believe that once we are justified, we will remain justified. Catholics believe that justification can be lost and that we have maintain it through obedience.
quote:I think it's a pretty foundational difference. It's the difference between God accomplishing all His holy will in us and getting all the glory vs. man getting at least part of the glory through willful cooperation.
ETA: specific to initial justification, I believe the disagreement is one of semantics honestly.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 1:41 pm
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:34 pm to Revelator
quote:
You pound your head?
Fact! Mary is the Mother of God since she gave birth to the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity. Mary is referred to as the "New Eve" since she undid the damage done by Eve - namely disobeying God.
Did you know that scientist have discovered that every single human being possesses a single common gene - thus pointing to common parentage?
So my friend, you can pound your head in frustration at us Catholics for loving Our Blessed Mother, but in truth, she's your mother too.
I leave you with the salutation the Angel Gabriel made upon announcing Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God......
Hail Mary, full of Grace [i.e.Full of God) the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb - Jesus.
In a few hours I will gather with my Catholic Family at my Church to celebrate His birth. As I do that I will imagine the face of Mary illuminated by the glow of a candle as she adores her newborn baby and her God.
This post was edited on 12/23/23 at 1:49 pm
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