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do you always find it odd when people answer questions posed to them? 
1
Posted on 4/27/25 at 3:48 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
The Freedom Of Choice is beautiful, isn't it!
America First, forever!
America First, forever!
Posted on 4/27/25 at 3:54 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It’s easy to critique someone else’s evidence when you don’t have any evidence yourself.
Jay P. Greene, Paul E. Peterson, and Jiangtao Du, “Effectiveness of School Choice: The Milwaukee Experiment,” Education and Urban Society (January 1999).
William G. Howell et al., “School vouchers and academic performance: results from three randomized field trials,” Journal of Policy Analysis and Management (2002).
Jay P. Greene, “Vouchers in Charlotte,” Education Matters (Fall 2001).
M. Danish Shakeel, Kaitlin Anderson, and Patrick Wolf, “The Participant Effects of Private School Vouchers Across the Globe: A Meta-Analytic and Systematic Review,” EDRE Working Paper No. 2016-07 (May 2016).
Megan Austin, R. Joseph Waddington, and Mark Berends, “Voucher Pathways and Student Achievement in Indiana’s Choice Scholarship Program,” The Russell Sage Foundation Journal of the Social Sciences (March 2019).
Matthew M. Chingos and Paul E. Peterson, “Experimentally Estimated Impacts of School Vouchers on College Enrollment and Degree Attainment,” Journal of Public Economics (February 2015).
Posted on 4/27/25 at 3:57 pm to Bard
quote:
Until that changes, we're going to keep flailing around because we're trying to fix a symptom instead of a root cause.
Any teacher who can’t teach a child whose parent is not perfectly invested in the child’s education should quit their job. They clearly don’t believe they can educate a child.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 3:58 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
The poster I responded to asked me which I would choose if I had to choose between the two.
The post you responded to stated
quote:
In this thread, 4cubbies support standardized testing as an accurate means of measuring educational outcome
That is not asking you to choose between the two by any logical progression. Moreover, it was not the first time you presented this false choice
quote:
answered the question that was asked.
I quoted the post above. Where is the “question”?
Posted on 4/27/25 at 3:59 pm to 4cubbies
quote:It depends on the answer. Yours, which inexplicably (stubbornly) rates testing over performance, is odd.
do you always find it odd when people answer questions posed to them?
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:02 pm to NC_Tigah
Testing is the performance.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:04 pm to dukkbill
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:06 pm to the808bass
The most recent study is ten years old. I guess I’ll look these up next time I go the library on campus…
Nvm, the most recent study is 9 years old.
Nvm, the most recent study is 9 years old.
This post was edited on 4/27/25 at 4:07 pm
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:10 pm to Diego Ricardo
quote:
think universal voucher programs will be inflationary on private school tuition prices. A voucher essentially sets a new floor for cost of tuition.
I agree with this. We can see what happened when student loans were given for college by the government.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:21 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
But I have expertise in education. I know that private school teachers don’t need to be credentialed. When I was in 7th grade, my classmate’s mom who never attended college at all and had no experience with kids outside of raising her own was one of my teachers. It would not surprise me to find out that inexperienced and uncredentialed teachers taught the kids who used vouchers.
No. Some private schools don't require credentials. Some do, if there is some credentialing that has an impact on educational outcomes, parents are free to seek that as a criteria.
An argument that some parents aren't able to discern is tenable; however, thus specific study shows that the educational outcome of college attendance is improved by school choice WITH AN EVEN HIGHER OUTCOME WITH UNDERSERVED DEMOGRAPHIC SEGMENTS
Moreover, your example leaves a lot out. Was this teacher ineffective, less effective than her perers, etc. If so, by what measure. I know plenty of people with PhDs WITH AWARDS FOR TEACHING EFFECTIVENESS that wouldn't have the credentials necessary for teaching in public schools
That seems counterproductive for middle and secondary school( and your evidence is middle school) I can understand value of specific credentials at elementary school, but this is also where standardized testing tends to have even lower correlation to educational attainment
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:23 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
This is so inconsequential but here: LINK
That is not the post you responded too. Its not even the poster you responded too
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:24 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Negative. Achievement is the performance. Obviously. Teaching is aimed to that purpose, or at least it obviously should be. That is the entire premise. One does not attend school so that she can pass tests. One attends to gain next level results. Otherwise our teachers are teaching to tests, which would be a disservice.
Testing is the performance.
This post was edited on 4/27/25 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:36 pm to NC_Tigah
So how would you assess a fourth grader’s achievement? Wait to see if he graduates from college in 12+ years?
Posted on 4/27/25 at 4:37 pm to dukkbill
He referenced my response in my exchange with the Az guy. You can connect these dots. Not sure why you’re being so contrarian.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 5:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
So how would you assess a fourth grader’s achievement?
The student, the teacher, or the institution? Those are different answers. For the former case ( which seems to sling to your focus shift), I hope its not stsnrdized tests alone. I hope the teacher feedback is part of that parental evaluation. In at least most states its part of the teacher evslation by the institution
If its teacher evaluation, then pre-enrollment, Id evaluate other parents with experience much higher than test scores. Too much variance in test scores based on the class level to meaningfully evaluate teaching effectiveness based on test scores. More important and relevant to the next paragraph, I don't know of a “teacher choice” program. You don't even get tgat at Exeter
If its institution evaluation, Ive never been faced with a choice where there was just a 4th grade decision. Thus, I don't think the 4th grade hypothetical readson the question. To the extent that it does, then yes, at such a high aggregation, attainment is the better measure of the institution achievement. Id rather have a school promoting more education tfan teach a test
Most important, the comparison is moot. Its not the only choice; its not the only criteria; and even if it were, then school choice allows a parent to choose between attainment and test scores
Posted on 4/27/25 at 5:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Oh, by all means, let's make it more absurd. How would you assess that fourth grader’s achievement if he doesn't survive innercity lifestyle past early highschool?
So how would you assess a fourth grader’s achievement? Wait to see if he graduates from college in 12+ years?
Let's make it more absurd still. Your contention is that same fourth grader performs as well, or better, in a shitty (15th percentile) school, simply because the school attended is public.
Your contention is the parents of that 4th grader should have NO CHOICE to get their kid into a top 15th percentile public school, or select private/parochial schools.
Why?
Because they cannot afford it!
A gifted child is held down for no reason except her parents are unable to afford avoiding terrible underperforming elements of our public school system. That's just great.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 5:03 pm to the808bass
quote:
Any teacher who can’t teach a child whose parent is not perfectly invested in the child’s education should quit their job. They clearly don’t believe they can educate a child.
No one is saying every child's parent must be perfectly invested nor is anyone saying that's the only problem with the public school system, those are ridiculous stances and surprising coming from you. You don't usually create hyperbolic, strawman arguments. Having a bad day?
The point is that it's a statistical fact that students whose parents are more involved in their education are more likely to do better in school.
Harah & Burke - 1998
Hill & Craft - 2003
Marcon - 1999
Stevenson & Baker - 1987
El Nokali, Bachman & Votruba-Drzal - 2010
How about a meta study of 448 other studies - 2019?
Those are just a handful of studies or meta studies showing this fact.
You can fill a school with the best administrators and best teachers, but if it's in a shitty community with uninvolved parents, the school is going to have perpetually poor grades.
I'm not saying there aren't shitty teachers, there absolutely are, but the greater context of this topic is that kids whose parents are taking advantage of the Ohio school choice law to move their kids out of a bad school to a better one are doing statistically better than those whose parents did/could not take advantage of the program.
In other words: parental involvement.
And, as I mentioned in my previous post, more parental involvement is better for holding schools (teachers, administrators) accountable.
Posted on 4/27/25 at 5:19 pm to Bard
quote:
And, as I mentioned in my previous post, more parental involvement is better for holding schools (teachers, administrators) accountable.
I agree with your premises and studies. In fact, its not just attainment and score improvement, most measures of attendance and social skills show positive impact. I also agree that school choice allows parents to use this criterion in school selection (or asit may influence aggregate measures like me scores of attainment)
The challenge has been effective incentive programs to increase this involvement
Posted on 4/27/25 at 6:45 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Oh, by all means, let's make it more absurd. How would you assess that fourth grader’s achievement if he doesn't survive innercity lifestyle past early highschool?
What is going on? You are dissatisfied with the way public schools assess student achievement when the same standards of assessment are applied to voucher schools so I’m asking you for the specific metrics you would like to see used and you’re just being snarky in response. If you think c voucher schools should play by different rules, tell us the rules you think each type of school should adhere to when measuring student achievement and teacher proficiency.
This post was edited on 4/27/25 at 6:46 pm
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