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Started By
Message
re: Much Needed Clarity Regarding the Pope and the Recent Document Regarding Blessings
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:23 pm to Revelator
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:23 pm to Revelator
quote:
Much later.
How much later is later? Are we talking AD 325 at the Council of Nicaea, AD 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, AD 600 with Pope Gregory the Great, the Great Schism of 1054?
quote:
And for when it was officially founded, you tell me.
Sure. It was founded around the year AD 30 when Christ said the following:
quote:
13
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
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And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 5:24 pm
2
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:26 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Sure. It was founded around the year AD 30 when Christ said the following:
Yeah I know what you believe about the matter. You have no choice as a Catholic
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 5:27 pm
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:36 pm to Revelator
quote:
Yeah I know what you believe about the matter.
Then why'd you ask?
You still haven't given me a definitive answer as to when YOU think it was founded. An organization as large and as influential as the Catholic Church should be fairly easy to date to a specific year or era.
If it wasn't founded in the year AD 30 then when was it founded? It had to have been between the year AD 30 and the year AD 107 as St. Ignatius of Antioch mentions it by name in his writings:
quote:
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. - St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, (AD 107)
St. Ignatius of Antioch, as was mentioned in an earlier post, was a disciple of St. John the Apostle.
And we know from St. Ireaneus of Lyons' writings from the year AD 180 that there were at least SOME Christians who believed that all Christians should listen to the Church in Rome on account of its preeminent authority:
quote:
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition.” - Against Heresies, (AD 189)
St. Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp who himself was a disciple of St. John the Apostle. So it's clear that an entity calling itself the Catholic Church and quacking like the Catholic Church was alive and well as early as the second century.
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 5:38 pm
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:36 pm to Revelator
quote:
Catholics insistence that belief in Marian dogmas are essential
for salvation.
Go ahead and post the cite. Now.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:43 pm to RollTide1987
The Church is Apostolic, because she is descended from the XII Apostles of Jesus. She is in communion with the Apostolic sees: Rome above all (Peter and Paul), Jerusalem (James), Alexandria (Mark), and Antioch (Barnabas, Paul etc), and later Constantinople.
The basic meaning of Catholic is Universal, from Greek kath'olon, according to the whole.
This term for Jesus's Church was already in use by 107 AD when St Ignatius of Antioch uses it, without explanation, in his Epistle to the Smyrneans.
St Irenaeus of Lyon c.180 uses the word “Catholic” to distinguish the true, universal Church from the many Gnostic groups and local sects which had set up in opposition.
Until the eleventh century both Greeks and Latins understood the same thing by the “one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.”
At the time the nicene creed was written, the entire Church was Catholic. “Orthodox” was not yet even a word coined, and when it was, it was used to describe the Catholic Church. They were one and the same until the Great Schism of the 11th-13th century.
the church in the west is just called Roman Catholic now and orthodox in the east for simpler terms.
The basic meaning of Catholic is Universal, from Greek kath'olon, according to the whole.
This term for Jesus's Church was already in use by 107 AD when St Ignatius of Antioch uses it, without explanation, in his Epistle to the Smyrneans.
St Irenaeus of Lyon c.180 uses the word “Catholic” to distinguish the true, universal Church from the many Gnostic groups and local sects which had set up in opposition.
Until the eleventh century both Greeks and Latins understood the same thing by the “one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.”
At the time the nicene creed was written, the entire Church was Catholic. “Orthodox” was not yet even a word coined, and when it was, it was used to describe the Catholic Church. They were one and the same until the Great Schism of the 11th-13th century.
the church in the west is just called Roman Catholic now and orthodox in the east for simpler terms.
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 6:07 pm
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:43 pm to Revelator
quote:
Just because a group of Catholics gather here and pat themselves on the back and all agree, it doesn’t make it truth.
And I’ve been bringing up from the beginning, Catholics insistence that belief in Marian dogmas are essential
for salvation.
I think it's an error to say that christians will be judged based on if they believe a certain set of dogmas. Like Jesus will give us an exam at the end of our lives and ask us do you believe in XYZ. But the scriptures point to our judgement being something else.
Without getting into great detail, I think it's simple. Did we know Jesus and did Jesus know us. Often in the scriptures Jesus uses parables that say depart from me you evil does I did not know you. Just like Matthew 7:23 says.
There is obviously a lot more to this, but I believe it ultimately boils down to our relationship with God and how we lived out his commandments to love God and love our neighbor.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:52 pm to Champagne
quote:
quote:
Catholics insistence that belief in Marian dogmas are essential
for salvation.
nah..........LOL.............
but here is what i posted to our resident calvinist WHO U BLEW or whatever his name is...my bad...FOO MAN CHOO......
quote:
I believe in sola scriptura
which has been debunked. along with sola fide. the bible itself debunks this if you can read. oh wait, you have the wrong bible also huh?
sola fide is false
sola scriptura debunked
you are as bad as a democrat here with lutheran/calvinist hogwash. you have been proven wrong so many times here i have lost count. I guess i should have made you a punch list like i did for democrats on election fraud with links? and happenings? you are a hack.
quote:
not sola ecclesia.
nobody argues church alone. but scripture did say the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15
your issue is putting scripture, the church and traditions all together like they should be. just like grace, faith and works. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic church gave us the bible in 397 AD when they approved it. Even paul stated follow the traditions I taught you by word of mouth or by letter. That debunks sola scriptura as well.
instead you profess sola scriptura and sola fide. Both are false.
LINK
Posted on 12/31/23 at 5:55 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
catholictigerfan
hope you are doing good man.
do you remember the good ole days when we had that 100 page thread with TN BHOY and revelator and others?
Posted on 12/31/23 at 6:39 pm to Revelator
quote:
Much later. Your believe that Peter was the first Pope and you believe he passed this down to another Pope and so on until the present. I don’t. And for when it was officially founded, you tell me.
Eusebius gives us a list of the bishops of Rome from Peter all the way to his writing in 300 AD
Interestingly ( I did not know this)
Eusebius tells us that the second bishop of Rome was Linus who was mentioned by Paul in his letter to Timothy.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 6:51 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
Eusebius tells us that the second bishop of Rome was Linus who was mentioned by Paul in his letter to Timothy.
Wait until you get to Clement of Rome, the 4th Bishop of Rome, who was mentioned by name in Philipians.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 6:55 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
Eusebius gives us a list of the bishops of Rome from Peter all the way to his writing in 300 AD
Interestingly ( I did not know this)
Eusebius tells us that the second bishop of Rome was Linus who was mentioned by Paul in his letter to Timothy.
Earlier still, St. Irenaeus of Lyons (writing in the AD 180s) gives us a list of the succession of bishops of Rome from the time of Peter to his (Irenaeus's) day:
quote:
The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles...To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 6:57 pm to Stitches
quote:
Wait until you get to Clement of Rome, the 4th Bishop of Rome, who was mentioned by name in Philipians.
And whose letter to the Corinthians, written between AD 85-AD 95, still exists today.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 7:07 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
quote:
Wait until you get to Clement of Rome, the 4th Bishop of Rome, who was mentioned by name in Philipians.
And whose letter to the Corinthians, written between AD 85-AD 95, still exists today.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 8:32 pm to CatholicLSUDude
quote:
I actually think you'll see a much more conservative/traditional Catholic Church in the next decade or two because it's quite obvious that everyone serious about their faith under the age of fifty is pretty traditional. You can see that by looking at the most popular Catholic podcasts, YouTube channels, etc. They are ALL traditionalists, none of the top entities in the Catholic media world are pushing for gay marriage or women priests or anything like that. It's actually pretty remarkable. The few priests and lay people pushing for it are boomers.
Millennial Catholics are based, and I love it. God bless Father Mike!
Need to get Revelator to subscribe to Catechism in a Year.
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 8:36 pm
Posted on 12/31/23 at 8:49 pm to Revelator
quote:
The oral traditions that you speak of were the teachings the disciples learned directly from Jesus.
quote:
It’s is wholly illogical to think there are some mystical oral traditions that didn’t end up in the Bible
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." John 21:25
Posted on 12/31/23 at 8:54 pm to DVA Tailgater
I have seen it.
When I was stationed in the D.C. area I typically attended a Traditional Latin Mass and was surprised that most of the attendees weren't older Catholics but those from the Millennial and Gen Z generations.
When I was stationed in the D.C. area I typically attended a Traditional Latin Mass and was surprised that most of the attendees weren't older Catholics but those from the Millennial and Gen Z generations.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 9:06 pm to Stitches
quote:
quote:
The oral traditions that you speak of were the teachings the disciples learned directly from Jesus.
quote:
It’s is wholly illogical to think there are some mystical oral traditions that didn’t end up in the Bible
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." John 21:25
oral traditions had to be relied upon because we did not have even 1 full copy of a bible until 397 AD. Then copies had to be done by hand by the monks. the printing press was not invented until 1400. word had to spread orally/verbally.
This post was edited on 12/31/23 at 9:08 pm
Posted on 12/31/23 at 11:03 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
When I was stationed in the D.C. area I typically attended a Traditional Latin Mass and was surprised that most of the attendees weren't older Catholics but those from the Millennial and Gen Z generations.
I am in the Diocese of Arlington (Basilica of St Mary in old town) and can vouch that this truly is a great place to embrace your faith and a place where the youth seem to be pushing things towards the traditional.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 11:35 pm to Foch
quote:
I am in the Diocese of Arlington (Basilica of St Mary in old town) and can vouch that this truly is a great place to embrace your faith and a place where the youth seem to be pushing things towards the traditional.
Nice. I attended St. Rita's over by Potomac Yard.
Posted on 12/31/23 at 11:52 pm to CatholicLSUDude
I’m Catholic, and pretty observant.
If it takes this much to explain this new position, then it probably shouldn’t be a position that should be taken.
If it takes this much to explain this new position, then it probably shouldn’t be a position that should be taken.
This post was edited on 1/1/24 at 12:10 am
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