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jerep
Member since May 2011
441 posts

Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
In response to the Alien and Sedition acts, a blatant attempt to shut down criticisms of the efforts by the Hamiltonians to grab power, the legislatures of Virginia and Kentucky passed resolutions (the Va and Ky resolves) condemning them and explaining how they were unconstitutional, violations of the fundamental principles of government held by the people and the states, and therefore illegitimate.

Many state legislatures, in bed with the Hamiltonians, responded by attacking the resolves. (In the following election the people threw out many of those elected officials.) The Virginia assembly responded with a letter to the people of Virginia and with a report on the resolves answering the attacks directed against them. The report of the committee was written by James Madison.

Let's see what he said about the relative authority of the federal supreme court vs the authority of the states in interpreting the the U.S. Constitution.


[Quote]

But it is objected that the judicial authority is to be regarded as the sole expositor of the Constitution, in the last resort; and it may be asked for what reason the declaration by the General Assembly, supposing it to be theoretically true, could be required at the present day, and in so solemn a manner.

On this objection it might be observed, first, that there may be instances of usurped power, which the forms of the Constitution would never draw within the control of the judicial department; secondly, that if the decision of the judiciary be raised above the authority of the sovereign parties to the Constitution, the decisions of the other departments, not carried by the forms of the Constitution before the judiciary, must be equally authoritative and final with the decisions of that department. But the proper answer to the objection, is that the resolution of the General Assembly relates to those great and extraordinary cases in which all the forms of the Constitution may prove ineffectual against infractions dangerous to the essential rights of the parties to it. The resolution supposes that dangerous powers, not delegated, may not only be usurped and executed by the other departments, but that the judicial department also may exercise or sanction dangerous powers beyond the grant of the Constitution, and, consequently, that the ultimate right of the parties to the Constitution to judge whether the compact has been dangerously violated, must extend to violations by one delegated authority as well as by another; by the judiciary as well as by the executive or the legislature.

However true, therefore, it may be that the judicial department is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the Government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial as well as the other departments hold their delegated trusts. On any other hypothesis, the delegation of judicial power would annual the authority delegating it; and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers might subvert forever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution which all were instituted to preserve.

... The authority of constitutions over governments, and of the sovereignty of the people over constitutions, are truths which are at all times necessary to be kept in mind, and at no time, perhaps, more necessary than at present.

[Unquote]


Lickitty Split
LSU Fan
Inside
Member since Apr 2017
2674 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
If we can get more people reading this type of history/literature we might have a shot.

I feel surrounded by idiots when discussing government and sovereignty with the general public.


Taxing Authority
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
43766 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

If we can get more people reading this type of history/literature we might have a shot.
More than 120 characters. Won’t fit in a tweet. They’ll labels it violence anyway.


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NeilBS
Member since Nov 2019
290 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
OP, I read that, but can you explain what it means?


Dirk Dawgler
Georgia Fan
Where I Am
Member since Nov 2011
482 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
Virginia and Kentucky legislatures spoke out against federal over reach of power by issuing resolves on the heels of the Alien & Sedition Acts.

A faction of the Federal powers (Hamiltonians) , aligned with other State Legislatures to censor and reprimand their criticizers. As a result, many of the Kentucky and Virginia elected became victims of a crusade by the Hamiltonians to remove them from office via elections.

The Virginia Legislature issued a letter in response, reported by James Madison with a conclusion that asserts that suggests that Sovereignty of the People >Constitutions> Governments.

Basically saying that government derive it’s power from the people it governs and their contract. Not the other way around.





udtiger
LSU Fan
Louisiana
Member since Nov 2006
73484 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
Better watch out...4 people downvoted a verbatim quote from the Declaration of Independence the other day.


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121
JudgeHolden
LSU Fan
Gila River
Member since Jan 2008
14152 posts
 Online 

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

If we can get more people reading this type of history/literature we might have a shot.


“History” is a cover name for power. It’s like the Bible. People using it quote the part they like.

Trump did vast damage to the conservative movement. If it gets worse before he leaves, it may be irreparable.

Citing history won’t change that. 1/6 is it’s own history.

The huge irony here is that in fighting “socialism” Trump may have done more to usher it in than any man in America’s past. “History” has a sense of humor.
This post was edited on 1/13 at 6:56 am


bluedragon
Auburn Fan
Birmingham
Member since May 2020
1971 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

Better watch out...4 people downvoted a verbatim quote from the Declaration of Independence the other day.


Says a lot about the reading comprehension skills of the average Democrat voter.


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Meauxjeaux
Memphis Fan
98244 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
28695 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

f we can get more people reading this type of history/literature we might have a shot.


What percentage of people do you think even have the attention span to try to get through that? Like you said, it’s a sad state of affairs.


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10
MMauler
Member since Jun 2013
12047 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

Many state legislatures, in bed with the Hamiltonians, responded by attacking the resolves. (In the following election the people threw out many of those elected officials.)


What the Dims know is that if they start implementing many of the far left whackjob policies that they really want to enact, they'll be thrown out of office in the next election.

Of course, they have a solution for that.

Before they start implementing these insane policies, they'll make sure to rig the entire f*cking system so that they can't lose their seats. First off, they'll get rid of the filibuster. Second, they'll get statehood for D.C., Puerto Rico and other leftwing territories to pack the Senate. Third, they'll make mail-in ballots the law of the land for all federal elections with no signature verifications. Finally, they'll pack the Supreme Court so that all of their CLEARLY Unconstitutional laws will be rubber stamped by the most biased, politicized, and radical SCUM that wipes their a$$es with the Constitution on a nightly basis.

At that point, when they know their seats are safe because they'll be given carte blanche to engage in massive f*cking voter fraud in every f*cking election, they'll start implementing their demented, deranged and insane far left wing whackjob policies.

And, the worst part -- they'll be able to rightfully claim that they told us they were going to do it all and because of massive f*cking voter fraud in the 2020 elections, they were put in office anyway.
This post was edited on 1/13 at 9:53 am


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NeilBS
Member since Nov 2019
290 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

Before they start implementing these insane policies, they'll make sure to rig the entire f*cking system so that they can't lose their seats. First off, they'll get rid of the filibuster. Second, they'll get statehood for D.C., Puerto Rico and other leftwing territories to pack the Senate. Third, they'll make mail-in ballots the law of the land for all federal elections with no signature verifications. Finally, they'll pack the Supreme Court so that all of their CLEARLY Unconstitutional laws will be rubber stamped by the most biased, politicized, and radical SCUM that wipes their a$$es with the Constitution on a nightly basis.
How could you forget: Citizenship for twenty million illegal immigrants and permanent open borders!


jerep
Member since May 2011
441 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
NeilBS, I'm can't explain it well enough to do it justice, and I'm definitely not good enough to do it in a few lines, but I'll do the best I can.

What I quoted is a small piece of what was in the report. To really fully get what was going on you have to spend some time reading about what led up to the Alien and Sedition acts, going back at least to the debates over the impost (import tax) under the Articles of Confederation and the debates over ratification of the new (our current) constitution. This was the history of their last 15 years.

When you start to do that, you'll find that they considered and predicted most of what has happened to the general (what most now call the "federal") government almost as if they had been looking backwards from now. You may find some of it confusing at first because we've been given such a distorted, misleading, and simplistic view of our history. It also takes a while to get the hang of the better mastery of the language they (usually) had compared to us. It's like we are children listening to adults talk. Jefferson is easier to follow than Madison, Hamilton is horrible. Jefferson (I think correctly) thought that Hamilton was purposely convoluted and wordy in an attempt to disguise the fact that his arguments were an attempt to mislead people from the truth of what he was really trying to do.

The bit that I quoted was just meant as an example. In this case basically Madison (on behalf of the committee) starts by pointing out that the critics of the Va Resolves had said roughly (among other things) "It's not up to you to say these laws are unconstitutional, that's up to the federal courts."

Then he takes this argument apart piece by piece to show that it's non-sense. Very roughly; He starts by saying that if we accept this argument then no one, not even the parties which created the Constitution (the states) have the authority to stop the judiciary from acting unconstitutionally and enlarging it's own power. The logic was obvious, if this argument were true, then the Constitution served no purpose and was meaningless; the judiciary would be it's own judge and it's own source of power. Next he points out that if the judiciary can do this, there is no logical reason the other two branches (he refers to them as departments) can't do the same except in the specific circumstances that they are explicitly directed to answer to the judiciary.

He then says that this is exactly the kind of thing the particular resolve under consideration addresses. That when any of the branches claims a power not explicitly delegated by the states to the general government, that the ultimate protection is that the states have to say, "Nope, we never gave you that power and you don't have it. We created you, we are the masters and you are the servants. It's not the other way around."

It's hard for us to imagine today because the States have been turned into little more than money-begging provinces of a single national government (what was then referred to with loathing as "consolidation"), but at that time the general government still wasn't quite bold enough to try to use force against the will of a State government, partly because the States were unwilling to trust the general government with a large standing army (that is, any organized armed group of men acting to enforce the will of the government on the population as a whole), and because if force were resorted to, there was a good chance other States would see the threat, come to the aid of the State under attack, and dissolve the general government. Experience with a government that ruled the people rather than the other way around was still in the living memory of most people, and for those too young, they had heard about it from their parents. (The British government had been much less heavy-handed than what we experience today.)

Next Madison points out that the judiciary is the proper branch to have final say in those few specific areas where the Constitution says it is to resolve disputes between different branches (and between the States which were understood to be sovereign parties to the federal compact). But he goes on to say that for everything else, in all the areas not enumerated in the Constitution and therefore not delegated by the States to the general government, the judiciary has no say, no legitimate authority. He then reiterates that this is the obvious nature of things since the general government was created by the states to serve them, not the other way around. This last statement was a trivially obvious historical fact which they had lived through, no more debatable than that we only have one sun in the sky.

He finishes by stating the obvious logical conclusion, that if this were not the case then the judiciary could nullify the power of its creators (the States and thereby the people) and that by working with the other branches to do the same thing, could make themselves absolute rulers and the people absolute subjects thus subverting the very purpose for which the Constitution was created.

In the paragraph that follows, I only included the summary sentence.

I think most people paying attention to government in this country, if honest and rational, can see that what Madison warned against in this quote describes what has come to pass and is now the state of affairs that has existed for a long time. But what I've quoted is only a little scrap of what they left us. The problem is not enough people take the time to read. You can't absorb this from someone talking in a video, you've got to read and mull it over and think about it and read it again and read related things. They told us what would happen if we didn't jealously protect our liberty. We didn't. Now, it's not enough to change one set of politicians for another, we've got start by relearning what was common knowledge for them and then we can deal with where things gradually went off the rails since then.


NeilBS
Member since Nov 2019
290 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate it.


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SOKAL
Member since May 2018
3513 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
And Jefferson, in response to the alien and sedition act, covertly authored a series of resolutions for the Kentucky legislature to pass because the -- now get this - the US Supreme Court refused to step in and declare that the federal legislation was an infringement of the First Amendment.

Turns out = you get a crisis when the Court refuses to do its job.
This post was edited on 1/14 at 1:36 am


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SOKAL
Member since May 2018
3513 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

“History” is a cover name for power.



Are saying that historically that has been true?



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dgnx6
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2006
41715 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

The huge irony here is that in fighting “socialism” Trump may have done more to usher it in than any man in America’s past. “History” has a sense of humor.


History says that would be our first black president. William Clinton.


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11
AGreySlate
USA Fan
Louisiana
Member since Jun 2018
760 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

The authority of constitutions over governments, and of the sovereignty of the people over constitutions, are truths which are at all times necessary to be kept in mind, and at no time, perhaps, more necessary than at present.

quote:

jerep


Thanks for sharing, these are the types of threads I relish to encounter here, but quickly disappear.

Is this from a book you’re reading? If so, I’d love to acquire it.


Cossatotjoe
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2020
506 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
Actually Mason is saying that the federal government derives its power from the states and that the states are superior. Lincoln came around sixty years later and said that the federal government derived its power from the people and thus the states did not have the authority to withdraw their consent from the federal government.

Lincoln was the worst American ever and he turned the idea of the American republic completely upon its head and made the federal government the master of the states.


2020_reVISION
Michigan Fan
Richmond,VA
Member since Dec 2020
87 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:

Lincoln was the worst American ever


I hate to break it to you, but he's about to be dethroned and lose that distinction to any number of Libocrites here shortly.


Cossatotjoe
Arkansas Fan
Member since Oct 2020
506 posts

re: Madison, sedition, and the federal courts
quote:


I hate to break it to you, but he's about to be dethroned and lose that distinction to any number of Libocrites here shortly.


They are all his spiritual descendants. And of course, he received warm correspondence from their main spiritual and ideological ancestor.


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