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Message
Let's Talk Assisted Suicide
Posted on 8/13/14 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 8/13/14 at 12:52 pm
I attempted to bring this up in the Robin Williams thread but that thread was admittedly going in a completely different direction.
If you're for big government and restrictions on individual liberties, I can see why you'd agree with the prevailing norm that assisted suicide clinics be generally banned.
But if you're a libertarian who believes my rights end where yours begin and I should be able to do anything I want as long as it doesn't hurt you (or more broadly, the environment or even society in general), is there any argument to be made against allowing assisted suicide clinics?
Switzerland offers them and has regulated them such that the profit motive can't be allowed to influence a doctor's "recommendation" in this case, and they've generally been wildly successful. They allow able-minded folks suffering from terminal illnesses and debilitating depression to end their lives in a safe, peaceful and painless environment, preventing them from having to blow their brains out or hang themselves only to be discovered by a family member. More importantly, they've become the accepted setting for suicides for people across Europe, meaning people actually show up to commit suicide, but can actually be talked out of it by a physician who sees a better course of action. That's a potential outcome that wasnt available to Robin Williams. What's the political argument against this?
Morally, I'm absolutely opposed to suicide, but my morality shouldn't interfere with another individual's right to do as they please with their own body (again, assuming they aren't hurting anyone else in the process). Suicide is essentially the ultimate expression of free will and individual liberty, so why not let people do it under terms that are beneficial to everyone.
If you're for big government and restrictions on individual liberties, I can see why you'd agree with the prevailing norm that assisted suicide clinics be generally banned.
But if you're a libertarian who believes my rights end where yours begin and I should be able to do anything I want as long as it doesn't hurt you (or more broadly, the environment or even society in general), is there any argument to be made against allowing assisted suicide clinics?
Switzerland offers them and has regulated them such that the profit motive can't be allowed to influence a doctor's "recommendation" in this case, and they've generally been wildly successful. They allow able-minded folks suffering from terminal illnesses and debilitating depression to end their lives in a safe, peaceful and painless environment, preventing them from having to blow their brains out or hang themselves only to be discovered by a family member. More importantly, they've become the accepted setting for suicides for people across Europe, meaning people actually show up to commit suicide, but can actually be talked out of it by a physician who sees a better course of action. That's a potential outcome that wasnt available to Robin Williams. What's the political argument against this?
Morally, I'm absolutely opposed to suicide, but my morality shouldn't interfere with another individual's right to do as they please with their own body (again, assuming they aren't hurting anyone else in the process). Suicide is essentially the ultimate expression of free will and individual liberty, so why not let people do it under terms that are beneficial to everyone.
This post was edited on 8/13/14 at 12:55 pm
7
Posted on 8/13/14 at 12:54 pm to RedStickBR
Anything to get them from jumping in front of the Acela trains in the northeast.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 12:57 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
and they've generally been wildly successful.
By what metric?
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:03 pm to onmymedicalgrind
In terms of success rate for those who go through with the procedure (the statistics regarding people who put a bullet through their heads and survive are much worse) and in terms of people who may have otherwise jumped off a building actually coming to terms with alternative courses of relief recommended by the physician (that don't involve death).
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:07 pm to RedStickBR
I'm a believer that if someone wants to take their life, there is something mentally a bit off with them. Even in the case of a terminally ill person in pain, I think something happens in the brain to allow them to want to die.
This is a hard discussion to participate in since I haven't walked in these kinds of shoes. I don't know for sure how I think about this to be honest.
It sounds so weird that exists. Freaky.
This is a hard discussion to participate in since I haven't walked in these kinds of shoes. I don't know for sure how I think about this to be honest.
quote:
Switzerland offers them and has regulated them such that the profit motive can't be allowed to influence a doctor's "recommendation" in this case, and they've generally been wildly successful.
It sounds so weird that exists. Freaky.
This post was edited on 8/13/14 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:08 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
In terms of success rate for those who go through with the procedure
Umm yea its not hard to kill a person who wants to be dead when you have access to tons of pharmaceuticals. Water is also moderately damp.
quote:
and in terms of people who may have otherwise jumped off a building actually coming to terms with alternative courses of relief recommended by the physician (that don't involve death).
Is there any data on this?
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:12 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
Suicide is essentially the ultimate expression of free will and individual liberty, so why not let people do it under terms that are beneficial to everyone.
This really all that needs to be said
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:13 pm to RedStickBR
Anyone who opposes(passing laws) assisted suicide for terminally ill persons who are in chronic pain(late stage cancers, pancreatic for example) is a horrible person. Who are you to tell someone how they leave this earth? Don't let your personal moral high ground affect others.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:14 pm to RedStickBR
There is no such thing as 'assisted suicide.'
If I hang myself, shoot myself, or jump off a bridge resulting in my death, then I have caused my death. That is suicide.
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death, which is at the very least manslaughter. Since it was premeditated, then you're looking at homicide.
If you want to kill yourself, you have that right, but you do not have the right to ask someone else to help you.
If I hang myself, shoot myself, or jump off a bridge resulting in my death, then I have caused my death. That is suicide.
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death, which is at the very least manslaughter. Since it was premeditated, then you're looking at homicide.
If you want to kill yourself, you have that right, but you do not have the right to ask someone else to help you.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:17 pm to mtntiger
quote:
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death, which is at the very least manslaughter.
So every doctor that issues a prescription that their patient overdoses on is guilty of manslaughter? What about the pharmacist that fills the prescription?
quote:
If you want to kill yourself, you have that right, but you do not have the right to ask someone else to help you.
Why not?
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:20 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
So every doctor that issues a prescription that their patient overdoses on is guilty of manslaughter? What about the pharmacist that fills the prescription?
I don't agree with mtn's overall position, but this is a terrible analogy.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:22 pm to ZZTIGERS
After seeing my father in law who was a doctor struggle with dementia and act as a zombie the last year of his life, I fully support assisted suicide for the terminally ill when they reach a state of unrelenting pain or inability to live in a functioning way (e.g. unable to eat, unable to communicate). Mental health or depression is different to me. To me those can be fixed. Things can change in life that would lift them out of depression. I would not support assisted suicide for those cases.
But I'd trade assisted suicide for the outlawing abortion. Would be interesting conundrum if a pregnant person wanted to commit suicide rather than deliver their child...
But I'd trade assisted suicide for the outlawing abortion. Would be interesting conundrum if a pregnant person wanted to commit suicide rather than deliver their child...
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:23 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
I don't agree with mtn's overall position, but this is a terrible analogy.
His premise was flawed. He said:
quote:
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death
Well if the doctor does everything except shove the pill down your throat, how is that different. How much trouble would I get in if I gave someone a rope? Regardless of what they chose to do with it.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:28 pm to Green Chili Tiger
The doctor or pharmacist would have to know that the meds they were giving were for ending a life (knowingly facilitating a death). I see where you were trying to go with this though.
I guess if the family consents, there is really nothing anyone else should say. Tough discussion here.
I guess if the family consents, there is really nothing anyone else should say. Tough discussion here.
This post was edited on 8/13/14 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:35 pm to RedStickBR
There's a documentary on Netflix about assisted suicide in Oregon. I think it is called something like...How to Die in Oregon.
It is excellent and make you think. I could never stand in the way of a terminally ill person who wants to go out on their own terms.
It is excellent and make you think. I could never stand in the way of a terminally ill person who wants to go out on their own terms.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:37 pm to mtntiger
quote:
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death, which is at the very least manslaughter. Since it was premeditated, then you're looking at homicide.
That's not even close to what happens in Switzerland. Rather, the doctor places a dose of pentobarbital sodium in front of the patient and it is then up the patient to take it, after which point the patient simply falls asleep and never wakes up (no pain is believed to be felt). There's an entire suicide tourism industry in Switzerland. Similar procedures also take place in the Netherlands and, to a much lesser degree, Oregon.
This post was edited on 8/13/14 at 1:39 pm
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:38 pm to RedStickBR
Helium and and a plastic bag. One trip to the party store and you're good...to go.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:40 pm to mtntiger
quote:
If YOU get the rope and do everything but knock the chair out from under me, then YOU have helped facilitate my death, which is at the very least manslaughter. Since it was premeditated, then you're looking at homicide.
This reminds me of those dads who take their 4 year old to some paid-for hunt where the 12-pt is standing about 10 feet in front of a set-up rifle, and all the little kid has to do is step up and pull the trigger ... then, the head gets mounted ... and dad goes around bragging to everyone how little johnny killed a 12 pt.
In other words ... you wanna commit suicide ... then kill yourself ...
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:40 pm to GetCocky11
quote:
There's a documentary on Netflix about assisted suicide in Oregon. I think it is called something like...How to Die in Oregon. It is excellent and make you think. I could never stand in the way of a terminally ill person who wants to go out on their own terms.
Excellent movie.
Who are you (or anybody) to tell people how they can or cannot end their life the way they want under the simple stipulation that they injure nobody but themselves?
I sure as shite don't want to go out like a zombie, with dementia or any debilitating disorder.
Hell, I don't want to go to a nursing home like my grandmother who will never walk again, speaks to her husband (been dead two decades), and rehashes the same story repeatedly.
PLUS, the funds are a drain on our healthcare system.
Posted on 8/13/14 at 1:41 pm to GetCocky11
Was coming to recommend How to Die in Oregon. That documentary will hit you right in the feels. The decision to go through with assisted suicide is tough and not made on a whim. These people are in excruciating pain and have little hope for a full recovery. They should be allowed to choice their own end and go out with dignity. Period. End of discussion.
Terry Pratchett's bbc documentary “Choosing to Die" is another great doc on the subject. Me follows a British guy to Switzerland and follows the ugh through the whole process.
Terry Pratchett's bbc documentary “Choosing to Die" is another great doc on the subject. Me follows a British guy to Switzerland and follows the ugh through the whole process.
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