re: Just what in the Hell are we hiding in Ukraine - I cannot imagine it being worth

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and basically zero Americans had to die.


So American proxy wars or as you might say "helpful weapons" leave no residue.

"Their deaths are good cause we had no deaths." Big Scrub TX

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Ukraine suffered greatly under Moscow's boot when Stalin liquidated millions of land owners and then starved millions more to death while he sold their wheat to Europe for cash.

For the younger generations, the 1930's may seem like ancient history, but that was the heyday of my grand parents and Ukraine's people have that kind of connection to the horrors inflicted on them two and three generations ago by the powers in Moscow. It's direct family lore and they haven't forgotten and will never forgive so, yeah, they'll fight.

Oh, man. I love your attitude and clear thinking. Truly. But a while back I found out that the whole USSR v USA dynamic wasn’t anywhere near what we were taught growing up in the 80’s. The USA has become more and more corrupt and our political class has completely sold us out. The unfortunate answer to the OPs question is, “bio weapon labs, money laundering and wholesale corruption.” The MIC and pols don’t want to defeat Russia. Russia is reasonable. If Russia goes down for the third time, they’ll have to pick a fight with China and North Korea and nobody really knows if we can win that or what buttons to push to keep it on a low simmer.

They know if Trump wins the war chests stop.

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Putin can end this war at any time. He started the invasion of a nation that America and much of the West had guaranteed their independence when we convinced them to give up their nukes.


Thanks for the perspective. I hadn't heard it before. What year did we convince Ukraine to give up their nukes?

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1993 and 1994. Ukraine had some 1700 nukes and we were very concerned that some would end up in the wrong hands on a black market.

Many of those weapons were dismantled and the uranium used for nuclear fuel and many more were transferred to Russia in exchange for guarantees for their independence, financial aid, debt forgiveness and promises of support.

An old engineer friend knew some of the American engineers who helped dismantle a lot of those nukes.

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Thanks for that. Where in Ukraine were your grandparents from? Were they primarily Ukranian speakers or Russian speakers?

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My grand parents were from South Carolina. The family memory reference was just to put it into a time frame. My grand parents lived through the Great Depression so those were their stories. Ukrainians who survived lived through Stalin's mass liquidations. Their stories are a million times worse.

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Just what in the Hell are we hiding in Ukraine - I cannot imagine it being worth

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I note that you intentionally overlook the whole thing about Russia invading other European countries in an attempt to conquer them with military force. That’s ok with you?

frick ukraine, I don't want my tax dollars funding that fiasco

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Ukraine suffered greatly under Moscow's boot when Stalin liquidated millions of land owners and then starved millions more to death while he sold their wheat to Europe for cash. For the younger generations, the 1930's may seem like ancient history, but that was the heyday of my grand parents and Ukraine's people have that kind of connection to the horrors inflicted on them two and three generations ago by the powers in Moscow. It's direct family lore and they haven't forgotten and will never forgive so, yeah, they'll fight.



Those generations are pretty much gone so saying that is ridiculous.

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Do you think that the 1930's generations grand kids don't know what happened and don't carry deep animosity as a result? It was genocide. Things like that don't die or be forgotten with the generation that suffered it. It lives on in family history and in national history. Such things are not forgotten as if people where a generation of dumb animals.

As a personal time frame, I know a great many details of how my grand parents and parents went through the Great Depression. But then I wasn't born yesterday.

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Doesn't that make the case to fricking end the conflict? Quit killing and come to an agreement? If we keep this going, it get's very very dangerous. They can't keep backing Putin and Russia into the corner, eventually they will escalate this and launch a tactical nuke or an even bigger nuke...What other option would they have?

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It's Ukraine that is backed into a corner because Putin invaded their country. He can end this any time, but he's afraid of the political consequences of failure in his military adventure.