re: Jesse Kelly with the hard truth on the GOP abortion issue

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Hmm.. so acknowledging and rejecting that you are attempting to castigate those of us who are passionately against abortion (by saying we have a syndrome) is also a victim complex?

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he knows that we (conservatives) despise the victim mentality that is the 800hp 8 liter V-10 engine powering the Democrat party, so he accuses us of having a victim / martyr complex to get under our skin. that's about the long and short of it, i wouldnt bother responding to him.

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Defending yourself is not exhibiting a victim complex any more than standing up for what you believe in is exhibiting a marytr complex.

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Facts.

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You cannot legislate morality.

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Then what according to you is the purpose of any laws at all ? Of course we legislate morality or we used to anyway

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You cannot legislate morality.

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We sure try.

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There's nothing negative in describing what these people are doing. The fact that you perceive it as a negative is telling, however.

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Come on now. Don't back down from what you were doing. You have described behavior and words in this discuss as a "complex" and "syndrome". Both victim complexes and martyr complexes are negative on their face and people seek help for themselves and others when they have them. Telling someone they have a martyr syndrome/complex (and subsequently a victim complex) is not a compliment, is it? I don't think it is, especially since you've used this in context with political suicide. Don't back away from what you're doing here. Either admit it and own it or apologize and take it back.

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It's not a "psychological issue". It's a world view, a personal POV of socio-political issues.

Again, you're projecting something that doesn't exist. It's telling.

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A worldview consists of values, and standing up for those values is part and parcel of consistency within one's worldview. What you're describing in this thread is not merely a description of strong adherence to a belief, but you are using the words "syndrome" and "complex", which are words that describe something bad or disordered. You aren't merely making an observation here, but are making a judgement.

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If your "defense of something you believe in" is a guarnteed loss, and the purpose of taking this loss is for a higher message/power, then it is the definition of a martyrdom complex.

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Based on this definition, being willing to accept negative repercussions for what you believe in is a complex, is it not? Clearly you are bringing this up in a negative way and aren't just making a neutral observation. Are you condemning any sacrifice based on values?

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The original term martyr is a person punished for religious beliefs in the face of the majority. When you center this behavior in the political context, it changes nothing.

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Martyrs can occur regardless of majority/minority context. Someone who is harmed in some way for what they believe can aptly be called a martyr for their belief, even if they are in the majority in their society.

I don't care about being called a martyr. I don't care about what others think of me. Doing the right thing regardless of the consequence used to be called "principled", but apparently now it's a syndrome or a complex.

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What you seem to be struggling with is the guarantee that you will lose, and that you only hurt your position within the political context of reality today.

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I'm not struggling with that at all. For the principled among us, we understand that our positions will be unpopular and even actively derided. Being a Christian, I'm used to ridicule. I'm used to being called a bigot, homophobe, transphobe, and all sorts of names because of what I believe. I don't "struggle" with that but accept it as coming with holding the beliefs that I hold.

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Of course, it seems many posters believe that abortions are regularly performed late in the pregnancy. This simply is not the case. Abortions after the 2nd trimester are very rare. And then it is typically a matter of life and death for the mother( and/or little chance of a healthy being born).

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You’re ultimately arguing for killing babies from the statistical margins.

Pro-life and Pro-abortion organizations’ statistics are all nearly alike showing that abortion is very rarely about saving the mother’s life and is mostly about personal convenience irrespective of trimester.

Perhaps 5 to 7% are about “health of the mother” and this is broadly interpreted and includes a nebulous category of “mental health”. Only God, the mother, and the physician know when an abortion is truly a matter of life and death for the mother. But it’s extremely rare.

You’re correct in that amoral pragmatism rules the day and has made pro-life beliefs political anathema.

The evil one is a brilliant chess master. As long as the economy is good, gas is cheap, groceries inexpensive and abundant, and private schools available to shelter our children-the abortion mills can churn on devouring generations of our innocent offspring while searing the conscience of our nation with a hot iron.

Lord, have mercy upon us.
Christ, have mercy upon us.
Lord, have mercy upon us.

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You cannot legislate morality

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it's illegal for me to murder another human
it's illegal for me to beat my children
it's illegal for me to rape a woman
it's illegal for me to rob a bank

is that legislating morality?

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Telling someone they have a martyr syndrome/complex (and subsequently a victim complex) is not a compliment, is it?

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That depends on how you perceive certain doomsday scenarios.

Most Evangelicals I know would wear that as a badge of honor in the face of a society filled with "people not worth saving".

I see lots of posts on here basically praying for societal collapse to "own the libs". They see it as a positive.

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What you're describing in this thread is not merely a description of strong adherence to a belief, but you are using the words "syndrome" and "complex", which are words that describe something bad or disordered.

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You're making things up to create negativity, and you're basing this entire response on that straw man.

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Based on this definition, being willing to accept negative repercussions for what you believe in is a complex, is it not?

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It can be. There is a lot of "why" involved as well as interaction within your personal group and society at large.

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Clearly you are bringing this up in a negative way and aren't just making a neutral observation.

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The perceive negativity you're projecting is based in you being in the extreme minority.

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Are you condemning any sacrifice based on values?

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Any? No.

Pointless sacrifice? Yes.

The same with pointless, irrational aggression (muh fight). It's the same thing.

Here is the difference. To not hurt feelings and get emotional responses, I'll frame this in terms of muh fight and not martyrdom.

I am telling you people that you have to start over and work to build a coalition to make your views palatable over time. You have to be smart and work over a long period of time (just as the Left has been for decades to get to this point of societal dominance).

What will not work, and will only further marginalize this socio-political progress that is claimed to be the goal, is irrational aggression (aka, muh fight). While you get a short-term dopamine hit, you only end up further marginalizing yourself in the long term by engaging in this strategy. This is the strategy of Idiocracy.

muh fight will not solve any actual problems. It will just further marginalize the "ouch my balls" crowd who loves it.

Martyrdom will not solve any actual problems, also. The crucial difference is that this path never intends to solve problems. It wants to virtue signal intending to take a loss, to reinforce non-political beliefs (typically some version of "society has failed and needs to end")

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Doing the right thing regardless of the consequence used to be called "principled", but apparently now it's a syndrome or a complex.

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This is a political discussion board. There are 2 discussions to be had: winning or virtue signaling (and losing).

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For the principled among us, we understand that our positions will be unpopular and even actively derided. Being a Christian, I'm used to ridicule. I'm used to being called a bigot, homophobe, transphobe, and all sorts of names because of what I believe. I don't "struggle" with that but accept it as coming with holding the beliefs that I hold.

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As I said earlier,

Most Evangelicals I know would wear that as a badge of honor in the face of a society filled with "people not worth saving".

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The GOP allowed themselves to be boxed in by pushing a “no exceptions” stance.

A lot of moderate women want rape, incest and health of the mother to be exceptions.

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Because the population comprising the GOP allows too many extremist zealots a seat at the table to virtue signal and guarantee losing.

This is exactly why I call it a martyrdom complex.

They don't want to win. They want to virtue signal.

And those who aren't as extremist and want to win wonder why the Left has taken over so many institutions and why they have a decided population advantage. Look no further than extremist zealots (who are found in more discussion topics than abortion) who want to lose.

*ETA: before the whataboutism resopnses, the above post in no way implies the Left doesn't have extremist zealots who don't care about winning. The Left just deals with these people by marginalizing them for the most part and only allowing their voice to really be amplified in hyper-Democrat areas.

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Because the population comprising the GOP allows too many extremist zealots a seat at the table to virtue signal and guarantee losing.

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Riiiight, because not wanting babies to be slain at the alter of irresponsibility, carelessness, and hedonism is totally what makes one a zealot!

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The GOP allowed themselves to be boxed in by pushing a “no exceptions” stance.

A lot of moderate women want rape, incest and health of the mother to be exceptions.

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if 100% of the GOP came out in support of rape, incest, and health of the mother exceptions today as a guarantee that all other abortions would be outlawed entirely, do you think the Left would suddenly be like, "yeah cool, we all agree"

of course not. the left will use the "women's rights" cause to garner votes, with the only limit being 100% on-demand abortions for any reason from the moment of conception through the second before birth, and the "extreme / zealot" position of the Right will just be the whatever the next barrier is after rape / incest / health.

the GOP is only "boxed in" because we allow the Left control the language and define terms such as "boxed in".