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re: Israel / Hamas in a biblical context - any content recs?
Posted on 10/15/23 at 2:31 pm to Wade Garrett
Posted on 10/15/23 at 2:31 pm to Wade Garrett
So you don’t believe in the Tribulation and rapture?
0
Posted on 10/15/23 at 3:01 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
The whore of Babylon was the Temple in Jerusalem, which was bought and paid by Cyrus the Great (King of Babylon and Persian emperor). Throughout the NT the theme is the temple priests are corrupt and are “blind” and “lack knowledge” meaning they are not worshipping YHWH correctly. Jesus wreaks havoc in the temple and threatens to destroy it. Early Christians rejoiced in the temple’s destruction in 70CE by the Romans. Think about it. Was Rome bought and paid for by Babylon? Did Rome owe allegiance to Babylon? No. But of course the second temple (including Herod’s refurbished version) was financed by Babylon and for about 300 years owed allegiance to Babylon.
i read that our concept of “God” is an amalgamation of the Canaanite deit El (elohim or El Shaddei) and Yahweh
basically Abraham and the early new testament protagonists or “proto-jews” i guess followed El . then they came into contact with the Caananites who worshipped Yahweh and then the 2 deities were assimilated into one deity
Apparently the proto jews were not exclusively mono theistic either
anyone have any context or knowledge on this ?
Posted on 10/15/23 at 3:03 pm to Diamondawg
quote:
I don't know many Evangelicals I don't think so don't what they say or believe. I certainly believe Catholics to be Christian, however I doubt I could compare and contrast all of the differences we share as Methodists with those of Catholics. I think y'all practice more sacraments than we and I have a problem with putting Mary in such high esteem and I really have a problem with the Eucharist being considered "transubstantiation". That's hard for me to swallow (pun intended).
Why shouldnt ALL Christians revere the mother of Christ- the only other sinless person to ever exist ??
As the popular meme says “ Why did you say those things about my mom”
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:01 pm to SkiUtah420
quote:We love Mary. But we do not venerate her to the point or same level as our Triune God. That's all.
Why shouldnt ALL Christians revere the mother of Christ- the only other sinless person to ever exist ??
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:16 pm to Diamondawg
no y’all dont- you deny her status and agency as the sinless mother of christ who was assumed into heaven after living a perfect life.
Also she is the “woman clothed with the sun” in revelation
Blessed Mother please intercede on our behalf to Jesus christ our Lord to convert these protestants apostates, heretics and Bama fans on Tiger Droppings-especially the evangelicals- so that they may recognize your rightful and holy status as the Queen of Heaven. Amen.
Also she is the “woman clothed with the sun” in revelation
Blessed Mother please intercede on our behalf to Jesus christ our Lord to convert these protestants apostates, heretics and Bama fans on Tiger Droppings-especially the evangelicals- so that they may recognize your rightful and holy status as the Queen of Heaven. Amen.
This post was edited on 10/15/23 at 4:21 pm
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:28 pm to SkiUtah420
Only Jesus is sinless. Mary was just a vessel.
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:38 pm to SkiUtah420
quote:
i read that our concept of “God” is an amalgamation of the Canaanite deit El (elohim or El Shaddei) and Yahweh
In Exodus 6:2-3, the scribe is trying to conflate YHWH with El Shaddai and re-write Jewish history/scripture. El Shaddai (god with breasts, a title) was the mother god, named Asherah or Anat, and was worshipped by the first temple cult (Solomon). Read Kings - they spell it out how all the Israelite and Jewish kings worshipped Asherah. Asherah was also known as “wisdom” and “the spirit”.
El, also El Elyon, was the father god. In Deuteronomy 32:8-9 there’s the scene where El Elyon divides the nations and gives each of his sons a nation to rule over, with YHWH his favorite son inheriting Israel. The redacting scribes forgot about that one. El Elyon was worshipped by the first temple cult too.
Then there’s YHWH (the LORD). He started out as a storm and volcano god of the nomadic Shasu tribe of the Sinai peninsula. Sort of. Then there’s Ba’al of the Canaanites (the favorite son of Elyon, also a storm god). The ancient Israelites conflated these two deities into one god they called YHWH. YHWH wasn’t originally a Canaanite god, but since they conflated him with Ba’al, that’s how he became known as the son of Elyon.
Elohim is a plural word meaning “gods” or better yet “spirits in the heavens”. Elohim included Elyon, Asherah, YHWH, Nehushtan (the snake god of the first temple), plus all the gods of the neighboring lands, plus the angels, seraphim, cherubim, demons, etc. in most of the Bible, Elohim is a reference specifically to YHWH when used with singular verbs and pronouns but you have to look at the context including the verbs and pronouns. Elohim with plural verbs refers to all the hosts of heaven.
The first temple cult never died out, and they continued to worship the father, the son, and the spirit. A sect of them even believed YHWH became incarnate in the flesh and was sacrificed to renew creation and usher in the kingdom of God.
quote:
basically Abraham and the early new testament protagonists or “proto-jews” i guess followed El . then they came into contact with the Caananites who worshipped Yahweh and then the 2 deities were assimilated into one deity
The first temple cult had no knowledge of Abraham, Moses, or David. All those characters were invented by the scribes re-writing the Jewish religion during and after the Babylonian captivity when Cyrus the emperor of Persia and King of Babylon financed the construction of the second temple.
Look up Elephantine Jews on Google. Get a book about them. We have many of their documents dating from about 600-400BCE. Even in 400BCE they don’t have a Torah and they never heard of Moses or Abraham. These were first temple cult Jews who fled to upper Egypt between the Assyrian conquest of Israel and the Babylonian conquest of Judah. They even had a replica of Solomon’s temple in Egypt. And guess what, they worshipped Elyon, YHWH, and Anat (Asherah) as indicated and specifically spelled out in their manuscripts.
quote:
Apparently the proto jews were not exclusively mono theistic either
They were never monotheistic and still aren’t. They may claim to only worship one divine deity but they believe in an assortment of divine entities who live in the skies who have power over heaven and earth, just not supreme power like the one they worship.
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:39 pm to Dixie2023
its problematic AF for the womb / person to birth the savior of humanity to be riddled with original sin
also scripture supports mary sinless nature
also scripture supports mary sinless nature
Posted on 10/15/23 at 4:46 pm to Squirrelmeister
whoa!
So where do we as Christians go from
here ?
Despite being a Catholic , I dont think its crazy that the source religion/knowledge/ truth we are trying to acess is essentially Sumerian/ Egytpian Cosmology/ Religion
So where do we as Christians go from
here ?
Despite being a Catholic , I dont think its crazy that the source religion/knowledge/ truth we are trying to acess is essentially Sumerian/ Egytpian Cosmology/ Religion
Posted on 10/15/23 at 5:21 pm to First Sergeant1
quote:
You probably think you can work your way to heaven
This is not a Catholic teaching. In fact, the Council of Trent condemns it.
quote:
you probably also think what the pope says is more authoritative than scripture
Another non-Catholic teaching
quote:
that we are to pray to Mary
And another
quote:
have to go through a man for confession
Reconciliation is a sacrament, yes. The very first Christians who learned theology directly from the apostles and their successors wrote of the validity of the sacrament. However, the church also teaches that a perfect act of contrition is valid in place of confessing to a priest.
quote:
should I keep going with all the false heretical teachings of the Catholic church
Well, so far, you're 0-4.
This post was edited on 10/15/23 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 10/15/23 at 5:54 pm to tee3
Amazing statement from an earthly pope.
Memo to all popes, you do not have any authority on whether the Jewish people are recognized as the "chosen" people of the Creator or whether the Jewish people were promised the Holy Land by the Creator....not one pope, living or dead has any authority in any of these matters.
Jesus gave the Jewish people fair warning of what was to come before he was crucified by the Romans with help from the Sanhedrin. Jesus lamented how he wanted to gather all of the tribes of Israel under the protection of His wings like a mother hen shelters her chicks but He was rejected as a blasphemer by the high priests because He challenged their authority over the tribes of Israel. Yes, even when the Creator sent His only Son into the world the people who Jesus was to save first rejected Him because the ruling class elites (Sanhedrin religious leaders) were upset they were going to lose their place on the totem pole of societal power.
It's still happening today in many facets of society.
Posted on 10/15/23 at 5:55 pm to SkiUtah420
quote:
So where do we as Christians go from here ? Despite being a Catholic , I dont think its crazy that the source religion/knowledge/ truth we are trying to acess is essentially Sumerian/ Egytpian Cosmology/ Religion
I’m a former Christian (Catholic) - had doubts around 8 years old and by the time I was 12 I had rejected it.
If you want to remain a good Catholic, go to mass on Sundays and give to the poor. If you want to start to figure out reality for yourself, I’d recommend you start… by reading the Bible. If you want want to cheat ahead, read Mark, Matthew, and Luke sideways and see if you can find any differences, and ask yourself if these are all the inspired word of God.
Posted on 10/15/23 at 7:28 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
read Mark, Matthew, and Luke sideways and see if you can find any differences, and ask yourself if these are all the inspired word of God
Jimmy Akin and Bart Ehrman have a good debate on the topic of "are the gospels historically reliable?"
Debate Link
This post was edited on 10/15/23 at 7:29 pm
Posted on 10/15/23 at 7:42 pm to Stitches
quote:
Well, so far, you're 0-4.
I think he might be 2 for 4.
quote:
that we are to pray to Mary
I was a Catholic in my youth and still sometimes attend mass as a non-believer. “We” pray to Mary.
Seriously, “we” believe she is a heavenly spirit, that she can hear our prayers, that she can act on them, that we can influence her, and that she has power to get stuff done for us. “We” venerate her and say how great she is over and over. Ever attended a rosary session? Catholics pray to Mary. The truth is that Christians, who descended from first temple Jewish theology (not second temple Mosaic theology), never stopped worshipping the mother of god (Asherah) and were worshipping her 1000 years before the time of Pontius Pilate.
quote:
have to go through a man for confession
If I’m not mistaken, the Catholic Church makes it mandatory to confess sins to a priest. Kids have to do it prior to first communion and prior to confirmation.
quote:
However, the church also teaches that a perfect act of contrition is valid in place of confessing to a priest.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I’ve never heard of this. Can you link to something like the holy document of Vatican law or anything, so I can read up on it?
Posted on 10/15/23 at 7:48 pm to Stitches
quote:Spot on. It’s really funny how many of us have no clue that it’s only a handful of Americans (use to be more) who see the world or interpret the Bible that way…
The Rapture doctrine is the result of 19th century dispensationalism, and is almost entirely specific to American evangelicalism. Foo summed it up nicely.
Also, you saying something nice to Foo is just so lovely :)
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:02 pm to Squirrelmeister
any links/ book suggestions that explore and explain this dichotomy in further detail
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:08 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Catholics pray to Mary.
Yes, in the classical sense of the word meaning "to ask", Catholics "pray" to Mary and an entire host of heavenly beings to ask for intercession. What I meant is that it isn't mandatory to do so in order to be a faithful catholic. In fact, and I'm sure you know this, a Catholic can never pray a rosary in his or her entire life and still be a perfectly faithful catholic, as the Hail Mary prayer is simply a voluntary devotion. The Hail Mary also isn't mandatory to say during Mass.
quote:
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I’ve never heard of this. Can you link to something like the holy document of Vatican law or anything, so I can read up on it?
Catechism #1452. Note that if sacramental confession isn't possible, you still fulfill the obligation in the last line.
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:16 pm to SirWinston
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:16 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
Also, you saying something nice to Foo is just so lovely :)
I like Foo just fine. I think he caricatures/strawmans the Catholic position a lot, but that's pretty typical from all sides in religious debate. Also, his posts sometimes help me to see arguments against Catholicism from a very well thought out and nuanced angle, so it helps to strengthen my apologetics.
I also enjoy the back and forths that you and I have had. Your theology aligns itself much closer to the Catholic position than Foo's does, and as I've always said, I consider you a brother in Christ despite our differences (Foo as well).
Posted on 10/15/23 at 8:19 pm to Stitches
quote:
Catechism #1452. Note that if sacramental confession isn't possible, you still fulfill the obligation in the last line.
Thanks for the informative response on this and praying to Mary.
So I looked up the catechism:
quote:
1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
That last bit seems to still require sacramental confession. So a perfect act of contrition can obtain forgiveness from a mortal sin as long as the sinner has the intention of following up confessing the sin to a priest. Seems like the asking forgiveness from a priest is still mandatory, no?
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