re: Israel / Hamas in a biblical context - any content recs?

Thanks I'll check it out. I'm open to everything but the Nero angle makes a ton of sense from I've read and watched so far. I need to reread that part of the Bible too, and I want to look into the "whore of babylon" cited earlier in this thread as being the Roman empire

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Is it possible that modern Evangelicals who so revere Israel and view Jews as "God's chosen people" are misinterpreting?

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Yes. They interpret scripture using a dispensationalist hermeneutic. All you need to know about dispensationalism is that it was invented in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby, and made more popular by Seventh Day Adventist creator Ellen G White. It is an interpretive system that is only 200ish years old, and only became "mainstream" in the 1900s.

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Could "God's chosen people" have meant the Jews who were early Christians and in large part massacred by Nero? And that modern day Israel (contrived by the UK after WWI - in part by Churchill, amazingly) and Jewish people today are far les relevant (perhaps not even relevant at all?) to the New Testament and to our Christian faith? That Israel is mainly of significant geographic interest?

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Israel as a nation is not the same as the Israel referred to as God's chosen people. As Paul said, "not all who are of Israel are Israel" (Romans 9:6)

"Israel" in the "God's chosen people" context is the new covenant church.

Israel and the Church

God’s chosen people have and will always be the Jewish people. That’s the reason for the “tribulation” it’s for the salvation of the Jewish nation. The church in any form did not replace the Jews. Jews are the fig tree. Christians are grafted into the fig tree but doesn’t replace the fig tree.

You can’t say revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD by Nero. Yes John may have used descriptions that Jews understood at the time of a Nero type figure as the conqueror but the only thing Nero fulfilled was the destruction of the temple of Solomon. The Jews never fled to Petra. They were taken captive or ran to the caucuses areas if they could get away. The 2 witnesses never showed up for 3 1/2 years preaching in Jerusalem. They never lay dead for 3 days and then resurrected.

Daniel clearly describes 7 years the Jews owe God for bringing idols in. They were in captivity for 483 years of the 70x7 = 490 years of punishment. The Jewish people still owe a God 7 years.

As far as the entire world against the nation of Israel they absolutely have been since 1948. Well over half of the UN resolutions go against the nation state of Israel. No other nation is even remotely close.

My thought is the Antichrist is the Mahdi of Islam. Probably someone like MBS that brokers a real “peace” deal with Israel. For 3 1/2 years (1260 days) the state of Israel is safe until the antichrist comes into the 3rd temple and desecrates it during the abomination of desolation. The Jews realize he’s isn’t who he claims and flees to Petra the place prepared. Spoken of in multiple OT prophecies. It was called Bozrah in the Old Testament. And the antichrist goes out to slaughter the Jews. Why does he do this because they are the apple of God’s eye, his first born, and God still loves the Jewish people. Replacement theology is nothing more than trying to climb the ladder on who God favors. He favors none. He loves us all equally. He wants to Tabernacle with all humans. We are his special creation so much so the angels rebelled.

Sir Winston if you need and are asking for direction I have no problem posting my email address here. Just say so

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made more popular by Seventh Day Adventist

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I wouldn’t say 7th day Adventist are dispensationalist. They want to be back under the law. That’s the opposite of dispensations.

For anyone that isn’t a dispensationalist. Then you must be sacrificing animals for forgiveness, must follow the laws of Moses and the 623 edicts proclaimed. Your women can’t attend church for weeks after childbirth. You can’t eat pork or shellfish. You have to follow all the dietary laws. Have to go to church on the sabbath.

If you aren’t dispensationalist how were you “forgiven” of sin prior to the Levite priesthood in the Old Testament?

Darby only gave it a name. Darby didn’t invent it. Josephus was a dispensationalist.

Stitches let’s see how smart you are in church history. When was the first Church council?

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I wouldn’t say 7th day Adventist are dispensationalist. They want to be back under the law. That’s the opposite of dispensations.

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I didnt say the SDA church is dispensationist, I said Ellen G White was.

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For anyone that isn’t a dispensationalist. Then you must be sacrificing animals for forgiveness, must follow the laws of Moses and the 623 edicts proclaimed. Your women can’t attend church for weeks after childbirth. You can’t eat pork or shellfish. You have to follow all the dietary laws. Have to go to church on the sabbath.

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Not true. Covenantalism is the historic Christian view, and rejects all of the above.

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If you aren’t dispensationalist how were you “forgiven” of sin prior to the Levite priesthood in the Old Testament?

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Sacrifices of blood, usually.

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Darby only gave it a name. Darby didn’t invent it. Josephus was a dispensationalist.

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Josephus was a Jew. Jews were not dispensationalists.

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Stitches let’s see how smart you are in church history. When was the first Church council?

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The Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

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What if that referred to Jews who were Christian converts fleeing Nero's terror? Some of that group likely fled to Petra to escape.

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There is no historical evidence to back any of that up. No early teachers taught that and it wasn’t a 7 year period of time either. None of the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD fulfills Daniel or John’s prophecies. Maybe a shadow of fulfillment but no true fulfillment.

Just like Jesus didn’t fulfill every prophecy about him at his first coming he will fulfill the rest in his second coming. He came as a lamb described multiple times in the Old Testament but didn’t come as the Lion of the tribe of Judah in his first appearing. Those will be fulfilled in his 2nd coming.

You have to remember outside of oral passing of what wasn’t approved by the Catholic Church was mostly destroyed by the Catholic Church. But there were many separate groups like the anabaptist that were around at the same time. And no for the Catholics in the thread they weren’t where the Baptist denomination comes from.

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This fits the description of Neros popular early reign

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Y'all are confusing anti-Christ with the Anti-Christ. Anyone resisting Christ is an anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ especially in The Revelation is described, such as he would serve 3 1/2 years (one half of the Tribulation). Nero served 14 years. Pretty much anyone over the history of Christianity that were against us were labeled the Anti-Christ. Maybe he has come and gone or is yet to come. I don't know. I just try to live as prepared as I can be.

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Josephus was a Jew. Jews were not dispensationalists.

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Doesn’t matter if he was Jew or Gentile he was in the Church. And yes he was a dispensationalist. All
Christians are dispensationalist. Because the Old Testament was the law of Moses. The New Testament is the Grave of God. Those in and of itself is dispensations. I don’t believe in hyper dispensationalist but dispensations a clearly defined by the outline of the Bible in Old and New Testament at a minimum. The new covenant that Catholics believe would be a new dispensation. So since you can’t incorporate church tradition doesn’t mean dispensations aren’t biblical

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Jew who observed the Law of Moses.

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So was Jesus. So what is your point. And yes he was definitely a dispensationalist. How was he an early church father if he didn’t believe in salvation in Jesus Christ? Hence making him a dispensationalist if he did. He along with every other Christian is a dispensationalist regardless of if you agree or not.

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How was he an early church father if he didn’t believe in salvation in Jesus Christ?

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He wasn't an early church father. He was a 1st century Jewish historian.

Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

Where are you getting your information from???