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Started By
Message
re: Interesting trump statement on Ukraine (wants Ukraine to go on offense)
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:32 am to Decatur
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:32 am to Decatur
quote:
What gives anyone the idea that Putin wants peace on terms that anyone else would accept?
What? My entire diatribe is about getting Ukraine and Europe to a place that they would accept Putin's current (rumored) terms or something near them.
I think any honest, reasonable person knows Putin is looking for an off ramp.
1
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:33 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I don't think it'll work. Not for lack of trying
for lack of earnest trying. Here's the test: Has Trump "rat-faced" Putin yet? Weak-arse-bitch? Low-energy? Crooked Vlad? (the most we get now is Vladimir, Stop!). Until the answer is yes in a sustained way (complete with body-shaming, wee-hours tirades, etc.) this is just saying "down boy" to your dog while you dangle steak.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:36 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I think any honest, reasonable person knows Putin is looking for an off ramp.
There is zero evidence for this and it is completely at odds with the expectations being set on Russian state TV. The objective has always been and remains complete annihilatation of Ukraine.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:37 am to TigerDoc
Trump understands where his rhetoric/baiting will likely help and where it won't. He knows because it's been his public ploy for a long time. He uses it selectively, usually on people he thinks he has inherent control or authority over, or when he thinks he controls some body of people who put pressure on the target.
Hence, most often used against people in Republican orbits or home stretch head to head contests.
He's playing a neutral here. I don't put it past him to try and taunt Putin, but no reasonable person (regardless of Trump) and no reasonable Trump supporter thinks he'll be able to berate Putin on Truth into giving Ukraine a better deal. It doesn't make sense.
He can do it to Z because Z is beholden to the United States. It's irrelevant to Z if he looks beholden to the United States to his population, although I'm sure it grinds at him. Putin's overarching objective is to avoid domestic discontent in exiting this conflict. Zero chance he can do so if he rises to Trump's taunts in making concessions.
Hence, most often used against people in Republican orbits or home stretch head to head contests.
He's playing a neutral here. I don't put it past him to try and taunt Putin, but no reasonable person (regardless of Trump) and no reasonable Trump supporter thinks he'll be able to berate Putin on Truth into giving Ukraine a better deal. It doesn't make sense.
He can do it to Z because Z is beholden to the United States. It's irrelevant to Z if he looks beholden to the United States to his population, although I'm sure it grinds at him. Putin's overarching objective is to avoid domestic discontent in exiting this conflict. Zero chance he can do so if he rises to Trump's taunts in making concessions.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:39 am to Decatur
Well, it’s also pretty clear that if Putin can get a piece deal where he gets to pause, claim victory, and reload for another offensive down the road, he’d before it. That’s why he wants a peace deal that does not include NATO like security guarantees for Ukraine. He still wants all of Ukraine. And he will settle for a step-by-step process.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:39 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Ex OT Ukraine Warriors are jerking off to that one.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:41 am to Decatur
quote:
There is zero evidence for this and it is completely at odds with the expectations being set on Russian state TV. The objective has always been and remains complete annihilatation of Ukraine.
Look if you're doing this to show the silliness of Russian propaganda, it's misdirected on me.
No serious person thinks Putin wants to continue a meat grinder for years to annihilate a region and people he claims as part of broader Russia. Putin wants and needs an out. He just arguably needs it less than Ukraine.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:41 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
We're about to see the MAGA boys on this board do a 180 tell us how you're a CUCK and a SIMP if you think Ukraine shouldn't be bombing Russia!
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:42 am to AGGIES
quote:
Well, it’s also pretty clear that if Putin can get a piece deal where he gets to pause, claim victory, and reload for another offensive down the road, he’d before it. That’s why he wants a peace deal that does not include NATO like security guarantees for Ukraine. He still wants all of Ukraine. And he will settle for a step-by-step process.
Absolutely. And if Ukraine hands over the heavily fortified areas that Russia wants as part of a faux peace deal it would be a cakewalk to move further into Ukraine as soon as Russia decides to resume hostilities.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:42 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
That is Trump throwing out bait. Letting Putin know that times ahead could get a lot harder than he thinks if he doesn't take this deal.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:45 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Putin wants and needs an out.
I can see the rationale here as an outside observer but I just don’t see the evidence.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:45 am to Decatur
quote:
Absolutely. And if Ukraine hands over the heavily fortified areas that Russia wants as part of a faux peace deal it would be a cakewalk to move further into Ukraine as soon as Russia decides to resume hostilities.
Is a peace deal that halts thousands of deaths a month (tens of thousands if you listen to various accounts) a "faux" deal just because it doesn't completely end the prospect of further conflicts?
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:45 am to AGGIES
quote:
Well, it’s also pretty clear that if Putin can get a piece deal where he gets to pause, claim victory, and reload for another offensive down the road, he’d before it.
Merkel and Hollande admitted that Minsk II was a scam to build up Ukraine. I don't know how you get Russia to trust any deal now.
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 9:46 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:46 am to Decatur
quote:
Absolutely. And if Ukraine hands over the heavily fortified areas that Russia wants as part of a faux peace deal it would be a cakewalk to move further into Ukraine as soon as Russia decides to resume hostilities.
Ukraine is gonna end up ceding most if not all of the territory currently under Russian control.
Unless the US intervenes militarily of course
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 9:49 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:51 am to Decatur
quote:
I can see the rationale here as an outside observer but I just don’t see the evidence.
What evidence do you see of Putin's commitment to taking all of Ukraine at this point? I'm not denying it's his desire, but I think he knows he's in a quagmire and he can take gains and exit. He can't throw bodies at the problem in 2025 (at least not without political damage). He can do so more than Ukraine, arguably, but not indefinitely. I don't think Russia is some great untapped force like so many believed earlier in the conflict, but I also don't think Putin is approaching the conflict with any real urgency.
The best argument I could see for your view (Putin's objective remains all of Ukraine, he's not meaningfully seeking an exit) is some idea that Ukraine is some weeks/months/etc. away from a collapse that would enable Putin to make territorial gains without significantly increased commitments likely to create more domestic trouble. I have no idea whether that's a potential consideration and if so, whether it's realistic.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:52 am to Bunk Moreland
I get that Putin is flexing.
But sometimes you bite off more than you can chew.
Edit - it looks to be like he’s trying to buy the pot at the high steak table, but he’s only got three of a kind
But sometimes you bite off more than you can chew.
Edit - it looks to be like he’s trying to buy the pot at the high steak table, but he’s only got three of a kind
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 9:57 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:57 am to AncientTiger
quote:
Russia has the capability to annihilate Ukraine at any time, without using Nuclear weapons.
No they don't.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:57 am to AncientTiger
quote:
Russia has the capability to annihilate Ukraine at any time, without using Nuclear weapons.
No they don’t, not unless they use WMD of some sort - biological, or nuclear, or if Ukraine gets no defensive help from the USA.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:01 am to Penrod
He’s got a bunch of missiles, no doubt. But from the looks of it, his army is hot garbage.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:02 am to Pettifogger
quote:
What evidence do you see of Putin's commitment to taking all of Ukraine at this point?
It’s the stated goal of the Russian military campaign (Putin has also stated himself). They tried and failed to take Kiev early in the war. Putin thinks that all of Ukraine belongs to Russia. It’s all the goobers on Russian state TV talk about. I don’t see this objective changing.
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