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Started By
Message
re: If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:50 pm to burger bearcat
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:50 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
What changes should be made to the Church?
To have this foundation:
Sola Gratia;
Sola Fide;
Solus Christus;
Sola Scriptura; and
Soli Deo Gloria
1
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:56 pm to John Coctostan
quote:
To have this foundation:
Sola Gratia;
Sola Fide;
Solus Christus;
Sola Scriptura; and
Soli Deo Gloria
You should read up on the council of trent which address some of these matters you bring up.
For example.
quote:
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Sounds like Sola Gratia to me.
or
quote:
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
Condemns Sola Fide.
edit: forgot the link.
LINK
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 1:58 pm
Posted on 10/7/21 at 2:19 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
So because it backs up what the Church teaches it is a self-serving interpretation and should be thrown out?
No, because it doesn't back up what the church teaches at all. The rock was the fact that Jesus was the Christ, Son of the living God. And upon that rock (fact) He would build His church. The rock wasn't Peter, it was the fact that he was Christ.
quote:
The problem with sola scriptura, which I believe you are trying to defend here, is that it is nowhere mentioned in the scripture.
What kind of logic is that? How does that give carte blanche to make up doctrine out of whole cloth?
quote:
Do you believe what the Apostles taught in their preaching had authority and should be listened to? I certainly believe they did preach with authority even if those words were not contained in sacred scripture itself.
Of course. Do you believe that those who preached 400 years later, preached the same doctrine that the Apostles did? How about a thousand years later? And in modern times? Do you not believe that Jesus and the Apostles would be appalled at the amount of money and the number of charlatans calling themselves Christians today? How can that be so if evil, fallible men had not taken the Gospel, and twisted and distorted it into a profitable business?
quote:
The problem with sola scriptura is with interpretation. How can we expect one to interpret the scripture by themselves? That is why we have thousands of denominations all preaching different and contrary teachings.
That should be between each person, and God. It's my opinion that the last thing God would want is a corrupt, evil, money loving church to interpret God's word to His followers.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 2:24 pm to RollTide1987
I couldn’t imagine complaining about the govt dictating my life, while letting a religion do the same.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 2:46 pm to troyt37
quote:
No, because it doesn't back up what the church teaches at all. The rock was the fact that Jesus was the Christ, Son of the living God. And upon that rock (fact) He would build His church. The rock wasn't Peter, it was the fact that he was Christ.
Then why change Simon's name to Peter which in Aramaic is rock?
Jesus is very clearly emphasizing that Simon is now to be called Peter or rock.
What emphasizes his point even more was to give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Isaiah 22:15-22 explains about a man with authority over the house of David. Does that mean David doesn't have authority? No. David is giving his authority to Eliakim. In the same way Jesus is giving his authority to Peter the "prime minister" of the apostles.
Jesus has the authority and he is the cornerstone, but that doesn't mean there is no authority outside of Jesus. Specifically, Jesus is giving authority to Peter, and Peter is giving his authority to his successors and their successors to his, etc.
BTW this is a classic both/and in the Church. Yes Jesus is the rock, he is the cornerstone, but so is Peter. Somehow they are both the rock on which the Church is built.
I can’t ignore what Jesus says to Peter in Matthew 16.
quote:
What kind of logic is that? How does that give carte blanche to make up doctrine out of whole cloth?
We don't make up doctrine as you claim. We interpret scripture and tradition.
quote:
Of course. Do you believe that those who preached 400 years later, preached the same doctrine that the Apostles did?
If they preach by human power alone, than no they didn't preach the same thing, but by divine power they can preach the same thing. Not technically the same thing but a development of previous things preached.
quote:
Do you not believe that Jesus and the Apostles would be appalled at the amount of money and the number of charlatans calling themselves Christians today? How can that be so if evil, fallible men had not taken the Gospel, and twisted and distorted it into a profitable business?
There are plenty of evils and problems in the Church, we are led by humans. Which I know you will say in response, well that is the problem. But again we hold that our Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and despite the fact that there are sinful fallible human beings in control, the Church still holds the authority given by Jesus Christ himself.
quote:
That should be between each person, and God. It's my opinion that the last thing God would want is a corrupt, evil, money loving church to interpret God's word to His followers.
That's the problem I laid out in any hersey that has existed in the Church. Someone like Arius would be able to run unchecked without an authority to declare someone in error.
Jesus intended to found a Church, a visible Church on earth. You may not believe it and nothing I will say will sway you but I hold that this is the Catholic Church, the one under the guidance of Pope Francis, who holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven just like St. Peter did.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 2:52 pm
Posted on 10/7/21 at 2:56 pm to keks tadpole
quote:
I read somewhere that the celibacy mandate was provided for a theological justification, but the real reason was that long ago in the far-flung diocese of Scotland and England, priests were passing their priesthood, along with wealth accumulated by the diocese from tithe and donation, to said priest's first born son.
I have heard that but I think it is more legend than true.
I know very good priests, some married but most not. I don't think the current Roman Catholic church could handle married priests. I am not sure it would be just to the wife.
Being a priest is a 24/7 role and would be very disruptive to a family, not to mention the usual stipend for a parish priest is around $1,200 a month. There are loads of reasons I don't see married priests working.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:14 pm to burger bearcat
That Catholicism is a necessary requirement for Salvation.
John 3:16
John 3:16
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:26 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
Then why change Simon's name to Peter which in Aramaic is rock?
I don't know, maybe because Simon had the correct answer (that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
quote:
What emphasizes his point even more was to give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
He was speaking to His disciples, not just Peter.
quote:
We don't make up doctrine as you claim. We interpret scripture and tradition.
To suit your purposes. Just as many other churches do.
quote:
There are plenty of evils and problems in the Church, we are led by humans. Which I know you will say in response, well that is the problem. But again we hold that our Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and despite the fact that there are sinful fallible human beings in control, the Church still holds the authority given by Jesus Christ himself.
So which Holy Spirit guided the church to persecute and kill those who believed a little differently than them? I'm not talking about other religions, I'm talking about Christians who just didn't toe the Catholic line. There is centuries of history showing these people being persecuted and killed. Was that a Holy Spirit guiding the church for centuries of oppression, or was that the authority given by Jesus Christ himself? If you say it was either, I say you have no idea about the Holy Spirit or Jesus either.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 3:27 pm
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:29 pm to burger bearcat
Something needs to be done about priest formation. The reality is there aren't enough straight, normal, men who want to become priests. This is not a new problem, however, I think a lot of the church's issues with homosexuality and raping little boys comes down to this.
Other religions who allow men to marry and have a family, do not seem to have the recruiting issues the Church has.
However, you then have to pay a priest enough money to have a family, live a decent life, etc. Baptists, etc, are very decentralized, and that has to save a ton of money. Think about all the money the archdiocese of New Orleans spend on central staff, and imagine if that went back into the parishes.
In other words, I don't know if you can have married priests - on a wide scale - without fundamentally changing the administrative structure of the Church. None of that changes dogma, I believe, but it's still a massive, massive change that I don't know if there is the appetite for.
The other changes involve that I believe the Church needs to do more outreach, more evangelism, and more recruiting for the faith. The Church makes no attempt to convert believers, they make no attempt to reach out to bring new people to Church, or to attract those that have drifted away.
Other religions who allow men to marry and have a family, do not seem to have the recruiting issues the Church has.
However, you then have to pay a priest enough money to have a family, live a decent life, etc. Baptists, etc, are very decentralized, and that has to save a ton of money. Think about all the money the archdiocese of New Orleans spend on central staff, and imagine if that went back into the parishes.
In other words, I don't know if you can have married priests - on a wide scale - without fundamentally changing the administrative structure of the Church. None of that changes dogma, I believe, but it's still a massive, massive change that I don't know if there is the appetite for.
The other changes involve that I believe the Church needs to do more outreach, more evangelism, and more recruiting for the faith. The Church makes no attempt to convert believers, they make no attempt to reach out to bring new people to Church, or to attract those that have drifted away.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:33 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
The other changes involve that I believe the Church needs to do more outreach, more evangelism, and more recruiting for the faith. The Church makes no attempt to convert believers, they make no attempt to reach out to bring new people to Church, or to attract those that have drifted away.
As we speak, the church is playing a very large roll in helping millions of Catholics to illegally invade our country over the southern border.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:33 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Should priests be able to marry?
Yes. This change would result in a lot more non-weirdos being willing to join the church. This was one of the few reasons why I never entered the seminary when I was younger. I wanted to some day get married and be a father, and most (not all) of the young seminarians I met were weird AF. I truly believe that one of the biggest reasons that communists and pedos were able to infiltrate and ruin the Church was because normal people by and large didn't want to join (similar problems in Scouting and Government, imo).
quote:
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
I think some responsibilities should be decentralized, but not issues of interpretation of scripture. Those should always be uniform across the faith.
quote:
Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
In what way do you see the Church as "passive" to evil?
quote:
Take stronger stances on Homosexuality and perverted lifestyles
The church already does this. The Church should be a place where all are welcome, but homosexual acts should still be taught to be sinful. However, things should always be taught from the perspective of forgiveness, salvation, and God's love rather than humans being evil and needing to be shunned by their fellow people. The Church should be a place where flawed people try to get better rather than a game of "No True Scotsman" for the faux righteous.
quote:
Be more involved in world events and confronting the evils of Communism and the Great Reset
Absolutely, but the problem is that the Church is currently on the other side of that issue. I think this is one area, however, where some of this should be largely decentralized to a bishop level, where the bishop is somewhat accountable to the views of the parishioners of his diocese.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:48 pm to McLemore
Posted on 10/7/21 at 3:56 pm to troyt37
quote:
So which Holy Spirit guided the church to persecute and kill those who believed a little differently than them? I'm not talking about other religions, I'm talking about Christians who just didn't toe the Catholic line. There is centuries of history showing these people being persecuted and killed. Was that a Holy Spirit guiding the church for centuries of oppression, or was that the authority given by Jesus Christ himself? If you say it was either, I say you have no idea about the Holy Spirit or Jesus either.
Yes, the church, or more accurately, those in positions of authority in the church, have abused their power and done horrible things, just like in the modern-day abuse crisis. Of course, the spirit doesn’t guide the church to make those actions or perform those deeds. More accurately, the enemy drives those people astray. What the Spirit does guide is that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.
I find you are throwing the baby with the bathwater. Because those in the church have done XYZ, the entire church must be evil. Instead of seeing that the church contains sinful members. Jesus didn’t intend for his church to be perfect before the second coming. Instead, he is purifying his church to become perfect at the end of time. Until that day, the church will always contain sinners.
Secondly, Jesus himself warned that bad people would be in the church. (Matt 7:15) Judas gave up Jesus to be crucified, but that doesn’t mean all the apostles are evil because of the action of one.
I think it’s miraculous that the Church has survived despite the evils done in its name. To me, that is a sign of the spirit protecting the Church.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:02 pm to BlackAdam
Availability 24/7? Mixed allegiances?
By that definition, no physician should be allowed to marry.
By that definition, no physician should be allowed to marry.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:07 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
I find you are throwing the baby with the bathwater. Because those in the church have done XYZ, the entire church must be evil. Instead of seeing that the church contains sinful members. Jesus didn’t intend for his church to be perfect before the second coming. Instead, he is purifying his church to become perfect at the end of time. Until that day, the church will always contain sinners.
I never said that there wasn't sinners and evil at every church. But I don't think there is sin and evil at the root of many churches like there is the Catholic church, manifested by the church hierarchy with it's layers upon layers of bureaucracy with unlimited funds to use for covering up and excusing that evil. this has been the story of the Catholic church for centuries, but you all seem to just keep kissing the ring, and declaring evil holy.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:07 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
f there was ever a Vatican III
Would be the perfect place for an allah snack bar moment to purge the corrupt church leadership
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:16 pm to burger bearcat
Allowing priests to marry.
Allowing women to be priests.
Allowing same sex marriages.
Taking full responsibility for the decades of child rape by church officials, and taking all necessary action to prevent it from ever happening again.
Allowing women to be priests.
Allowing same sex marriages.
Taking full responsibility for the decades of child rape by church officials, and taking all necessary action to prevent it from ever happening again.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:22 pm to troyt37
quote:
I never said that there wasn't sinners and evil at every church. But I don't think there is sin and evil at the root of many churches like there is the Catholic church, manifested by the church hierarchy with it's layers upon layers of bureaucracy with unlimited funds to use for covering up and excusing that evil. this has been the story of the Catholic church for centuries, but you all seem to just keep kissing the ring, and declaring evil holy.
So your main issue seems to be that you believe from its roots you believe the Catholic Church is corrupt, evil, and couldn't be the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
I'm not sure there isn't much I could say to try and break you of that view.
Simply put I think you are mistaken. My faith tells me that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. This is not blind faith but faith backed up by the scripture, by church fathers who say Jesus Christ's Church subsists in the Catholic Church. I could go on and on.
Does evil exist in the Church yes we agree on this point, but to what extent is where we disagree strongly.
We have obviously derailed this thread, and it makes sense why the admins like to keep religion off this board because it always turns into bashing each others beliefs and religious practices.
My sense is that we are both good people following what we believe to be the faith given to us by God and doing our best to follow what we believe Jesus taught. I hate that discussions like this always turn into, you follow an evil church and should be ashamed blah blah blah.
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 4:24 pm
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:23 pm to Wally Sparks
quote:
Joseph Bernardin
Gross
Posted on 10/7/21 at 4:24 pm to burger bearcat
Should priests be able to marry? This is a much more complicated theological and doctrinal question than many people realize.
It’s not complicated. They should be able to marry. The inability of them to do so is weird and makes them less able to serve their parishes. There is not a reason on earth that priests should not be allowed to marry.
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
I’m fine with Vatican City running shite and a hierarchy. So long as it’s actually used to do stuff like excommunicate pedophiles and report them to law enforcement.
Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
The church should leave to God what is God’s and to Caesar that which is Caesar’s. If by confronting evil you mean intervening in anything that is governmental that’s a hard no from me. The Catholic Church made a mess of every government it tried to run. See e.g. the Inquisition.
Take stronger stances on Homosexuality and perverted lifestyles
Maybe they should get their own house in order first. I’m Catholic and I’m fine if gay people want to be gay. You will never, ever pray the gay away. There are so many gay Catholics that join the priesthood to try to do just that - and it doesn’t work. It just leads to more problems.
The whole Catholic guilt thing messes with their heads and makes them crazy and they hate themselves and think they are cursed and needlessly filled with shame. It leads to drug addiction, poverty and so much needless suffering.
I think the Church should be less focused on trying to define perversion and more focused on encouraging marriage and monogamy. Those things bring us closer to God and lead to a happy and fulfilled life.
Be more involved in world events and confronting the evils of Communism and the Great Reset
Hard no. See above. Further in most places the church is involved in politics it is communist and globalist.
It’s not complicated. They should be able to marry. The inability of them to do so is weird and makes them less able to serve their parishes. There is not a reason on earth that priests should not be allowed to marry.
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
I’m fine with Vatican City running shite and a hierarchy. So long as it’s actually used to do stuff like excommunicate pedophiles and report them to law enforcement.
Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
The church should leave to God what is God’s and to Caesar that which is Caesar’s. If by confronting evil you mean intervening in anything that is governmental that’s a hard no from me. The Catholic Church made a mess of every government it tried to run. See e.g. the Inquisition.
Take stronger stances on Homosexuality and perverted lifestyles
Maybe they should get their own house in order first. I’m Catholic and I’m fine if gay people want to be gay. You will never, ever pray the gay away. There are so many gay Catholics that join the priesthood to try to do just that - and it doesn’t work. It just leads to more problems.
The whole Catholic guilt thing messes with their heads and makes them crazy and they hate themselves and think they are cursed and needlessly filled with shame. It leads to drug addiction, poverty and so much needless suffering.
I think the Church should be less focused on trying to define perversion and more focused on encouraging marriage and monogamy. Those things bring us closer to God and lead to a happy and fulfilled life.
Be more involved in world events and confronting the evils of Communism and the Great Reset
Hard no. See above. Further in most places the church is involved in politics it is communist and globalist.
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