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re: If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:58 am to Mo Jeaux
Posted on 10/7/21 at 9:58 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
The Orthodox Church doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and hasn't for over 2000 years.
They must marry before becoming ordained, and married Orthodox priests cannot become bishops. There is also a very strong correlation between the size of a diocese and the percentage of priests who are married. Diocese with huge populations tend to be shepherded by unmarried priests.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:03 am to burger bearcat
Stop being modern Pharisees.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:13 am to troyt37
quote:
And just what sacred scripture is there, that wasn't fit to be included in the Bible?
Sacred Scripture IS the Bible.
quote:
Which is another word for doctrine
No, it's another word used to refer to those things said and done by Jesus that didn't make it into Sacred Scripture but were passed reliably from the Apostles down into the present day.
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I have no idea what this is, but judging by your definition below, these are just men.
And? Men have been used by God since the beginning of humanity to spread His message to the masses. It was men, fallible, evil, rotten men, who wrote the Bible. St. Paul, whose writings make up the majority of the New Testament, was a murderer before his conversion on the road to Damascus. St. Matthew was a tax collector who took advantage of his fellow Jews on behalf of the Romans before being called to follow Christ. St. Peter denied Christ. St. James denied Jesus until he saw Him in resurrected form.
And yet those fallible, imperfect men were chosen by God to lead the early church. They were the ones who established our earliest practices and doctrines.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 10:15 am
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:15 am to Earnest_P
quote:Ok
If we change a “stance” because it is sometimes difficult to be subject to, we should just throw it out completely, because we don’t mean it at all.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:31 am to RollTide1987
quote:
No, it's another word used to refer to those things said and done by Jesus that didn't make it into Sacred Scripture but were passed reliably from the Apostles down into the present day.
And where are these writings by the Apostles to be found?
quote:
And yet those fallible, imperfect men were chosen by God to lead the early church. They were the ones who established our earliest practices and doctrines.
Pretty important words in bold there, and quite the distinction from the thousands of years of (evil) men chosen by other (evil) men to lead the church to do some incredibly evil things, wouldn't you say? And what do you think God would think about your earliest practices and doctrines in comparison to the current opulence, pageantry, and walled off city-states with a bunch of sinners running around declaring themselves Holy?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:32 am to burger bearcat
Vatican III - Woke Boogaloo
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:37 am to troyt37
quote:
And where are these writings by the Apostles to be found?
They didn't write everything down. A great deal was passed on orally. The Apostles and Gospel authors tell us so.
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Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter. 2 Thess 2:15
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Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. John 21:25
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:38 am to troyt37
quote:
And where are these writings by the Apostles to be found?
They weren't written down. They were passed along orally. Hence why it's called "Sacred Tradition." St. Paul himself told us to remember them in his Second Letter to the Thessalonians: "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter."
quote:
Pretty important words in bold there
I know. Just as the Apostles were chosen by God to spread the Good News, the Apostles (through the work of the Holy Spirit) chose their successors to continue the mission. Those successors, through the work of the Holy Spirit, then chose their successors. This pattern continues into the present day.
The men who make up the Magisterium in the year 2021 were chosen by the Holy Spirit (and therefore by God) to continue the mission that began when Christ ascended into Heaven outside of Jerusalem some 2,000 years ago. Pope St. Clement I, writing about the year AD 95, explains this process in his Epistle to the Corinthians. Today that process is known as Apostolic Succession.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 10:40 am
Posted on 10/7/21 at 10:55 am to RollTide1987
quote:
They weren't written down. They were passed along orally. Hence why it's called "Sacred Tradition." St. Paul himself told us to remember them in his Second Letter to the Thessalonians: "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter."
So really, they could be anything that the church, comprised of evil, fallible men, say that they are. Quite convenient, no? Is that where you get your never ending layers of bureaucracy, and worshipping the Pope as if he were Holy?
quote:
I know. Just as the Apostles were chosen by God to spread the Good News, the Apostles (through the work of the Holy Spirit) chose their successors to continue the mission. Those successors, through the work of the Holy Spirit, then chose their successors. This pattern continues into the present day.
Kind of like how we chose Joe Biden to be the leader of the free world? Men have agendas, and that includes church men that you have allowed your church to declare sanctified and Holy. The fact that you don't question this after seeing time and again how the church has elevated truly evil men to positions of leadership tells me exactly how successful your indoctrination has been.
quote:
The men who make up the Magisterium in the year 2021 were chosen by the Holy Spirit
And just who (according to the church) would that be, and how crazy is it to say "and therefore by God" as if whomever you have declared the "Holy Spirit" has to at some point be a person or group of people?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 11:21 am to Stitches
And I think that’s the reason it was included in the first place, but later excluded for concern that it would all be taken as inspired manuscripts, in which Judaism did not. I think if it’s considered for it’s historical references for the most part, it’s fine, but the distinction needs to be made that it’s not ever been considered divinely inspired and as such that shouldn’t be lumped into the rest of inspired scripture as if it is the same because it leaves room for confusion in the reader.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 11:28 am to burger bearcat
My advice for Vatican 3 is to undo anything and everything associated with Vatican 2.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 11:59 am to Mike da Tigah
No book of the Bible claims itself to be divinely inspired though. In fact the only reference to the word "inspired" is in 2 Timothy 3:16, where he says that all of scripture is inspired. Jesus indirectly quotes these books several times in His ministry as indicated in my previous post about this.
These books were also included in the Septuagint. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it.
I think the main reason why Martin Luther removed those books, is because they were very Jewish and Catholic in nature, and he wasn't a fan of either.
These books were also included in the Septuagint. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testament are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it.
I think the main reason why Martin Luther removed those books, is because they were very Jewish and Catholic in nature, and he wasn't a fan of either.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 11:59 am to troyt37
My understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus intended for their to be a church. You know the whole you are Peter and on this Peter (rock) I will build my church.
BTW Sacred Tradition is more than just we say it’s tradition so therefore it must be infallible as you claim. It is the case that Sacred Tradition is something that has been taught throughout the history of the Church even if it hasn’t been declared by a Sacred Council (like Vatican II) or by a Pope Ex Cathedra, or from the chair, meaning an infallible statement. BTW in the Church’s history there has been less than 10 statements by Popes that would be considered Ex Cathedra and infallible. I know blah blah blah evil men can’t say things without error but as the successor of Peter the Pope can speak infallilbly not because of his own power but because the Holy Spirit allows him to.
Secondly most infallible statements are backed up by tons of scripture references.
BTW Sacred Tradition is more than just we say it’s tradition so therefore it must be infallible as you claim. It is the case that Sacred Tradition is something that has been taught throughout the history of the Church even if it hasn’t been declared by a Sacred Council (like Vatican II) or by a Pope Ex Cathedra, or from the chair, meaning an infallible statement. BTW in the Church’s history there has been less than 10 statements by Popes that would be considered Ex Cathedra and infallible. I know blah blah blah evil men can’t say things without error but as the successor of Peter the Pope can speak infallilbly not because of his own power but because the Holy Spirit allows him to.
Secondly most infallible statements are backed up by tons of scripture references.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 12:02 pm to Stitches
From what I’ve read there was no set Jewish Bible at the time of Jesus. The books to be included in the Bible were still being argued at the time of Jesus and a couple hundred years after Jesus founded the Church.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 12:05 pm to catholictigerfan
This is correct, because within Judaism there were different factions with their own unique set of beliefs and traditions (Pharisee, Saddusee, Essenes like John the Baptist and Jesus, and Zealots).
Posted on 10/7/21 at 12:14 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
I believe that Jesus himself required celibacy of his apostles and lived it out himself.
This is false, I watched The Da Vinci Code.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 12:40 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
My understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus intended for their to be a church. You know the whole you are Peter and on this Peter (rock) I will build my church.
Which in itself is a self(Catholic church) serving interpretation of the Bible. No doubt Jesus intended for there to be a church, but that had nothing to do with the Catholic religion, and even less to do with what currently constitutes the Catholic Church.
quote:
BTW Sacred Tradition is more than just we say it’s tradition so therefore it must be infallible as you claim. It is the case that Sacred Tradition is something that has been taught throughout the history of the Church even if it hasn’t been declared by a Sacred Council (like Vatican II) or by a Pope Ex Cathedra, or from the chair, meaning an infallible statement.
I don't know if we understand each other or not. I'm saying there's absolutely nothing beyond word of mouth, by men who used the power and standing of the church to persecute and kill those who had other opinions, to say what those Apostles said and therefore the church must adhere to. I'm sorry, but I'm a rational human being. I don't for one second believe that anything out of the mouths of men can possibly be holy or infallible unless it is the Word of God, regardless of which church, or how high that church has decided to exalt the man saying it.
quote:
I know blah blah blah evil men can’t say things without error but as the successor of Peter the Pope can speak infallilbly not because of his own power but because the Holy Spirit allows him to.
So the successor of Peter can somehow speak infallibly, because the infallible church has decided that this man has the Holy Spirit within him, even though the bible clearly states that we are all sinners, and worthy of death? Is there a word that is beyond self-serving? Because I need it here.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:06 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Should priests be able to marry? This is a much more complicated theological and doctrinal question than many people realize.
Depends if you believe stuff like the Christ oil, daoist immortality, and all the other anecdotal evidence of greatness from retaining your seed.
quote:
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
It is interesting to look at history and think that maybe there was something to blood. Now blood has been so degraded that there may be nothing left for a "higher" human to be found.
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Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
Vatican II was an injection of evil to the church. If they are to be more confrontational they will have to purge a lot of what it has become and especially wipe out the Jesuit influence. It probably can't be done considering how pathetic the general populace is to what was evil back then to now. Like if you can't get women under control you can't really fight evil. Christianity is on the way out. Islam, small chance of Orthodoxy, is the future if it will be an Abrahamic religion.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:41 pm to crash1211
quote:Can we please keep:
Reverse Vatican II.
This is what I was going to say.
quote:
The altar, for example, was turned around to face the people. Mass was changed to be in the vernacular, no longer in Latin. And women no longer had to cover their hair in church.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 1:45 pm to troyt37
quote:
Which in itself is a self(Catholic church) serving interpretation of the Bible. No doubt Jesus intended for there to be a church, but that had nothing to do with the Catholic religion, and even less to do with what currently constitutes the Catholic Church.
So because it backs up what the Church teaches it is a self-serving interpretation and should be thrown out?
And yes it has everything to do with the Catholic Religion, but nothing I'm going to say in an online message board will sway your opinion.
quote:
I don't know if we understand each other or not. I'm saying there's absolutely nothing beyond word of mouth, by men who used the power and standing of the church to persecute and kill those who had other opinions, to say what those Apostles said and therefore the church must adhere to. I'm sorry, but I'm a rational human being. I don't for one second believe that anything out of the mouths of men can possibly be holy or infallible unless it is the Word of God, regardless of which church, or how high that church has decided to exalt the man saying it.
Ok I think I get what you are saying here. The problem with sola scriptura, which I believe you are trying to defend here, is that it is nowhere mentioned in the scripture.
Do you believe what the Apostles taught in their preaching had authority and should be listened to? I certainly believe they did preach with authority even if those words were not contained in sacred scripture itself.
The problem with sola scriptura is with interpretation. How can we expect one to interpret the scripture by themselves? That is why we have thousands of denominations all preaching different and contrary teachings.
Some interpret the scripture to mean that Jesus isn't God and merely a creature. Without the authority of the Apostles and their successors, nothing could go against that heretical teaching. What gives one person the authority to say Jesus is God and the person of the trinity when someone using the same scripture says he isn't God and merely a created being?
quote:
So the successor of Peter can somehow speak infallibly, because the infallible church has decided that this man has the Holy Spirit within him, even though the bible clearly states that we are all sinners, and worthy of death? Is there a word that is beyond self-serving? Because I need it here.
being infallible doesn't make you free from sin. Speaking infallibly simple means that speaks without error because the spirit inspired him to do so. It doesn't have the same level as Scripture but as I said everything they infallibly proclaim is based on scripture. In our recent history (last 300 years or so) only 3 statements have been made in an infallible nature, at-least by the Pope. The college or collection of bishops in union with the Pope can also speak infallibly. Not by their own power but by Divine Power.
If the spirit can inspire someone to write the scripture without error, why can't he do it again?
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 1:51 pm
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