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re: If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:10 am to McLemore
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:10 am to McLemore
quote:
Faith ALONE
Every Biblical scholar worth his salt agrees the word ALONE was not in Paul's original letter and was added by Martin Luther. Of all possible points, this would be the weakest place to start.
This post was edited on 10/8/21 at 11:15 am
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Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:14 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
It’s neither theological nor doctrine it is simply the current practice in the Roman right.
I read somewhere that the celibacy mandate was provided for a theological justification, but the real reason was that long ago in the far-flung diocese of Scotland and England, priests were passing their priesthood, along with wealth accumulated by the diocese from tithe and donation, to said priest's first born son.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 8:15 am
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:15 am to Zephyrius
quote:
Overall Vatican II is a very good Council.
What needs to be addressed is some of the ambiguity which led to the drastic change in the Mass. Some bishops took Vatican II then self interpreting making aggressive changes which were never meant to be.
Basically, most of the garbage from Vatican II was really done "in the spirit of Vatican II."
quote:
Also a Vatican III would need to address communion in the hand and eliminate the practice. This was a practice allowed in a single diocese in Europe but again Bishops took it and spread it throughout the Church.
Joseph Bernardin rammed it through the NCCB in the mid-70s when he was in charge of that body. Most of the issues in the U.S. Catholic Church can be traced back to him and the bishops he consecrated during his tenure as Archbishop of Cincinnati and Cardinal-archbishop of Chicago.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:15 am to burger bearcat
There is so much, but I’ll just call out a few:
I’d support them admitting that the Protestant Reformation was a reclamation of biblical doctrine and moving that way, themselves, primarily around the notion of sola scriptura as the sole authority over faith and life.
Then I’d like to see a 180 on all the non-biblical doctrine created out of thin air under the auspices of tradition, such as the doctrines about Mary that were created in the last few centuries.
Finally, I’d support them agreeing that the Episcopalian form of government they adhere to should be changed to the Presbyterian form that is supported by Acts, so that they are less tempted to return to their previous ways by influence of a single influencer (the Pope) but must garner the wisdom of the whole of the Church.
I’d support them admitting that the Protestant Reformation was a reclamation of biblical doctrine and moving that way, themselves, primarily around the notion of sola scriptura as the sole authority over faith and life.
Then I’d like to see a 180 on all the non-biblical doctrine created out of thin air under the auspices of tradition, such as the doctrines about Mary that were created in the last few centuries.
Finally, I’d support them agreeing that the Episcopalian form of government they adhere to should be changed to the Presbyterian form that is supported by Acts, so that they are less tempted to return to their previous ways by influence of a single influencer (the Pope) but must garner the wisdom of the whole of the Church.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:20 am to burger bearcat
quote:
Should priests be able to marry? This is a much more complicated theological and doctrinal question than many people realize.
Yes. If it was good enough for Jesus' disciples without Him dismissing it, then of course they should be able to marry.
quote:
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
Yes. More power to Bishops.
quote:
Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
Yes. More Biblical adherence.
quote:
Take stronger stances on Homosexuality and perverted lifestyles
Yes. More Biblical adherence.
quote:
Be more involved in world events and confronting the evils of Communism and the Great Reset
No. Keep religion and politics separate. However, speak on behalf of the suffering as Christ would in the face of evil doers.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:20 am to burger bearcat
quote:they can, next
Should priests be able to marry
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:24 am to burger bearcat
There was a Vatican III in 2005. LINK
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:28 am to burger bearcat
reassessment of the statement Jesus made during the trial.
I and the father are One.
this was seized upon during the trial and made out to be something Jesus never said or meant: ie that Jesus was claiming to be a God or God apart from all of you.
he never said that.
the trial moved immediately to an article 4
Heresy. claimed to be god.
and once Jesus was killed no one was willing to touch the premise: that we all are One with the Divine Person.
but imagine if the church says today: we are all one with the only one who is. all are within the one: the only divine person: who is all there is and ever will be.
no one is separated from god.
I and the father are One.
this was seized upon during the trial and made out to be something Jesus never said or meant: ie that Jesus was claiming to be a God or God apart from all of you.
he never said that.
the trial moved immediately to an article 4
Heresy. claimed to be god.
and once Jesus was killed no one was willing to touch the premise: that we all are One with the Divine Person.
but imagine if the church says today: we are all one with the only one who is. all are within the one: the only divine person: who is all there is and ever will be.
no one is separated from god.
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 8:31 am
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:28 am to RollTide1987
quote:
quote:
Should priests be able to marry?
No.
I don't really have an opinion either way here, but curious as to why you say no. so many people I talk to say otherwise with understandable reasoning.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:30 am to burger bearcat
Self Checkout needs to be in the mix
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:31 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I’d support them admitting that the Protestant Reformation was a reclamation of biblical doctrine and moving that way, themselves, primarily around the notion of sola scriptura as the sole authority over faith and life.
I'll consider this if you can point to me where it says in the Bible that Christians should only listen to the Bible and where the Bible gives a definitive table of contents when it comes to sacred scripture.
quote:
Then I’d like to see a 180 on all the non-biblical doctrine created out of thin air under the auspices of tradition, such as the doctrines about Mary that were created in the last few centuries.
So how is it that the Orthodox Church, who split from the Catholic Church in 1054, hold almost all the same doctrines on Mary that Catholics do? The same thing goes for the Copts who split from Catholicism in the year 451.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:34 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I’d support them admitting that the Protestant Reformation was a reclamation of biblical doctrine and moving that way, themselves, primarily around the notion of sola scriptura as the sole authority over faith and life.
So take a concept that wasn't a thing until the Protestants made it so, and make Catholics adhere to that. Who compiled the various OT and NT letters into a single work called the Bible again?
quote:
Then I’d like to see a 180 on all the non-biblical doctrine created out of thin air under the auspices of tradition, such as the doctrines about Mary that were created in the last few centuries.
So take practices that pre-date the Bible and get rid of them, just because the faiths that weren't around until the 1500s or so don't support them.
quote:
Finally, I’d support them agreeing that the Episcopalian form of government they adhere to should be changed to the Presbyterian form that is supported by Acts
So the disciples were part of the general assembly, and had no more authority within the original church than the common man?
This post was edited on 10/7/21 at 8:42 am
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:39 am to burger bearcat
quote:
If there was ever a Vatican III. What changes should be made to the Church?
A full, complete, and final rejection of Modernism in all aspects.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:41 am to Joe_Dirte
quote:
I don't really have an opinion either way here, but curious as to why you say no.
I'll echo the sentiments of Cardinal Sarah. He wrote in his book on the subject that allowing priests to participate in the sacrament of matrimony would remove the imitation of Christ as spouse of the Church and would thus turn it into a merely human institution. It would create more problems than it would solve.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:43 am to AlxTgr
quote:
and the annulment process is a joke.
That's unfortunately due to dioceses handling them differently.
quote:
Let's say someone loses their spouse to cancer after 40. Their choices for a new relationship are severely limited
Their choices are naturally limited. 40 years is a long time.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:45 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Clerical celibacy is a discipline.
But why? When I go to mass to hear the readings and hear the homily, what/how would the marital status of the priest affect my relation to this occurrence? Would his marital status compromise his other duties?
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:45 am to Joe_Dirte
quote:
I don't really have an opinion either way here, but curious as to why you say no. so many people I talk to say otherwise with understandable reasoning.
Being a husband and Dad brings in worldly concerns with which it is better for a Priest not to be burdened.
A good parish Priest is not someone with a lot of free time on his hands, so something would have to give if he were married.
“But what we would gain from being led by a man who better understood the trials and tribulations and blessings that come to a family man?”, you might ask. I’ve heard many Priests speak with much wisdom on marriage and family life, wisdom I believe they’ve gained through prayer, reflection, formation, and interaction with their parishioners, so I think in balance that juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:47 am to AlxTgr
quote:
The stance on divorce could be looked at. Let's say someone loses their spouse to cancer after 40. Their choices for a new relationship are severely limited, and the annulment process is a joke.
Once someone dies they are free to remarry anyone as long as the spouse isn't in a current marriage.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:48 am to RollTide1987
quote:
The Catholic Church has always held this view and re-stated it emphatically at the Council of Trent in 1547. So already you are approaching this argument from false pretenses.
It isn't being taught as much anymore. Not Catholic, but the last handful of masses I went to for special occasions, the message that was clearly communicated was a works emphasized salvation.
Posted on 10/7/21 at 8:51 am to burger bearcat
quote:
Should priests be able to marry? This is a much more complicated theological and doctrinal question than many people realize.
Yes.
quote:
Should direct power and authority from VC be decentralized while still receiving guidance and leadership?
Yes.
quote:
Should the Church be more confrontational to evil, instead of the current passive stance the Church is taking.
Yes.
quote:
Take stronger stances on Homosexuality and perverted lifestyles
Yes. They don't need to embrace this like other denominations are doing these days.
quote:
Be more involved in world events and confronting the evils of Communism and the Great Reset
Yes, but the current Pope is a communist sympathizer and all-in on a myriad of woke causes.
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