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re: I want to hear from the Agnostics. What will the secular world eventually evolve into?

Posted on 3/11/21 at 12:43 pm to
Posted by NashvilleTider
Your Mom
Member since Jan 2007
15183 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 12:43 pm to
It’s funny to think that people actually believe that Christianity will die off. The truth can never die. I’ve seen too many miracles in my life to have doubt. I was in Mexico at a service in a little baby didn’t have eyes and they prayed for her and she had eyes after the fact. I was out of service for a man was dead and I prayed for him and he rose from the dead. He’s a real things Jesus is on the throne. Just because it doesn’t happen in America doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. They were cities Jesus couldn’t heal in and he was God.
Posted by monsterballads
Gulf of America
Member since Jun 2013
31148 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

So religion, in it's more genuine form, is a process that urges one towards love and selflessness and empathy and humility.


Posted by monsterballads
Gulf of America
Member since Jun 2013
31148 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 12:52 pm to
quote:

I was in Mexico at a service in a little baby




quote:

baby didn’t have eyes and they prayed for her and she had eyes after the fact.


Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6544 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 1:00 pm to
I would like to say that it saddens me that so many discount the possibility of a Spirit realm.

String theory posits 10 dimensions beyond the four that we can measure. Religion claims the existence of at least one additional realm.

Religion claims such a "place" on the basis of religious experience and eyewitness testimony. Science calms ten as a way of further explaining the workings of this physical universe.

What is the different? Why is one supposition more credible than the next?

In fact we understand very little about existence. And it seems all this skepticism is just a way of declaring that the very little we know is all there is.
This post was edited on 3/11/21 at 1:03 pm
Posted by N.O. via West-Cal
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2004
7681 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 2:00 pm to
"I want to hear from the Agnostics. What will the secular world eventually evolve into?"

I don't know, I'm just not sure. I am open to the possibilities, though.
Posted by jcaz
Laffy
Member since Aug 2014
18761 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 3:06 pm to
quote:

Why don't you want to marry her?
Just curious, any selfishness at play?

I am married to her but I lived with her for a year before we got engaged. The priest was appalled when we told him we were living together even though we were getting married in the church. I just and roll my eyes at these dinosaurs.
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6544 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 3:47 pm to
Your young. One day you'll realize that everything that was relevant before you were born isn't total shite.
Posted by Nikki_T
Newport Beach
Member since Feb 2021
662 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 5:01 pm to
IMHO, Christianity has been in control for quite some time. It's just recently that they are being challenged.
Posted by Hammer of Rod
Member since Dec 2015
56 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 5:02 pm to
quote:

I would like to say that it saddens me that so many discount the possibility of a Spirit realm. String theory posits 10 dimensions beyond the four that we can measure. Religion claims the existence of at least one additional realm. Religion claims such a "place" on the basis of religious experience and eyewitness testimony. Science calms ten as a way of further explaining the workings of this physical universe. What is the different? Why is one supposition more credible than the next? In fact we understand very little about existence. And it seems all this skepticism is just a way of declaring that the very little we know is all there is.


I, as an agnostic, don’t discount the possibility of a spirit realm. I am saying as clear as I can that I don’t know.
As an atheist, I am saying that I haven’t heard a logical reason to believe in any God.
I am more than willing to hear evidence, claims are all I’ve gotten so far
Posted by Freauxzen
Washington
Member since Feb 2006
38404 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 5:04 pm to
quote:

As an atheist, I am saying that I haven’t heard a logical reason to believe in any God.
I am more than willing to hear evidence, claims are all I’ve gotten so far


5 Ways. This was covered a few centuries ago most recently.
This post was edited on 3/11/21 at 5:07 pm
Posted by Hammer of Rod
Member since Dec 2015
56 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 5:26 pm to
I am wholly unimpressed and unconvinced
Posted by jcaz
Laffy
Member since Aug 2014
18761 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 6:55 pm to
quote:

Your young. One day you'll realize that everything that was relevant before you were born isn't total shite.


It’s nothing to do with that. The notion that two people living together before marriage is a sin is flawed. Want less people to get divorced or have children then get divorced? Put them living together to see each other’s true colors first. But oh no can’t have two consenting commuted adults fricking in their own home! And even after they are married, NO CONDOMS OR BIRTH CONTROL!
Posted by RiverCityTider
Jacksonville, Florida
Member since Oct 2008
6544 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 7:14 pm to
I wish people would look more deeply into biblical scholarship beyond the latest sensationalism of Bart Ehrman.

There is very credible scholarly works that place the gospels within 50 years of the the Crucifixion of Christ and the epistles within 30.

There are thousands of of fragments of source materials from wide ranging geographical areas. Rather than being contradictory, they are are very much consistent with one another.

Even Ehrman states, when he is among scholarly peers, that the differences are subtle and taken together would not change basic Christian theology as passed down to any significant degree whatsoever.

Now, when he writes his books for popular consumption, he spins it differently.

Regardless, many people believe the notion that the bible has been dramatically altered in ways that profoundly change the meaning. We've all heard the analogy of the telephone game which implies that the life of Christ was passed along verbally from generation to generation, with facts being distorted and embelished along the way. But in fact, the time involved was much shorter and the verbal traditions much more meticulously maintained until put on parchment. Christ was not legend, and his life is more well documented than any of his contemporaries. This is true, even if you apply the exact same standards as you would to historians of long ago.

Many in the early christian church knew eye witnesses personally and the early worship prior to the existence of the bible is consistent with our modern worship and belief system.

And in fact, the books of the bible were not arbitrarily cherry picked. Rather, extra credibility was placed on the sources that were closer to the life of Christ and more widely substantiated.

Now none of this confirms Christ's divinity. That is a question of faith. But we do know that Paul put the number of witnesses to the risen Christ at 500, many still living at the time the epistles were written.

So, the idea that it is all an outlandish fable distorts reality. It is the reporting of history and eye witness testimony of alleged historic events.

We can argue over the accuracy of the reporting based on the improbability of it all if we want. But that doesn't change the fact that there were many persons involved who believed Jesus to be the Christ, and to have risen from the dead. What these people saw, or thought they saw, had such a powerful effect on them that it re-shaped our world.

Posted by Tom288
Jacksonville
Member since Apr 2009
21302 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 7:19 pm to
quote:

I want to hear from the Agnostics. What will the secular world eventually evolve into?


Then start with yourself, you're also agnostic. EVERYONE is agnostic.
Posted by Knartfocker
Member since Jun 2020
1656 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 7:19 pm to
quote:

eventually evolve into


It cannot "evolve". It only ever devolves into nihilism.
Posted by Srobi14
South Florida
Member since Aug 2014
3993 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 7:37 pm to
You could easily answer your question by looking at current nations that aren’t religious and compare their citizens general well being with markers for violence, child mortality or education. If you actually do that you will find there is is an inverse relationship ( the more religious countries are worse).

Though this is less due to religion making people more violent( though in some cases it may) and more due the phenomenon that people often turn to religious hope if their life has more hardships. In prosperous societies there is less need for that religious hope. So in summary the people’s well being will be less effected by their countries religiosity instead their well being will generally determine it.
Posted by Hammer of Rod
Member since Dec 2015
56 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 7:57 pm to
Appeal to Common Belief

argumentum ad populum

(also known as: appeal to accepted belief, appeal to democracy, appeal to widespread belief, appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to general belief, appeal to the majority, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, appeal to the number, argumentum ad numerum, argumentum consensus gentium, appeal to the mob, appeal to the gallery, consensus gentium, mob appeal, social conformance, value of community, vox populi)

Description: When the claim that most or many people in general or of a particular group accept a belief as true is presented as evidence for the claim. Accepting another person’s belief, or many people’s beliefs, without demanding evidence as to why that person accepts the belief, is lazy thinking and a dangerous way to accept information.

This is your argument
Posted by Knartfocker
Member since Jun 2020
1656 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:33 pm to
quote:

How do you reconcile a God that doesn’t know that slavery is wrong?

Did you even read Exodus? What about any of the founding fathers' positions on slavery? You should know the Bible is the most referenced source for the founding documents (12 times more than Locke or Montesquieu). So if the founders came to the exact opposite conclusion as you regarding God's views on slavery by referencing the exact same text, then we can only conclude thay one of you is absolutely wrong. This is a sad attempt at a gotcha.

quote:

How do I reconcile a God who thinks my daughter is a lesser person than a man?

You have no objective standing to make this claim. Any position you take to argue this will be from cherry-picked Bible verses (which you also tried to snarkily chide) and your own relative definitions of equality (more cherry picking). How can you even make this argument when the Church holds Mary in such reverence if Christianity views women as "lesser" as you so claim? Again, this is a lazy attempt at a gotcha.

quote:

How do you reconcile a God who ordered a genocide?

You obviously have no understanding of context, nor history, nor do you understand the texts of a religion you claim is so terrible. This doesn't even deserve a rebuttal.

Dig deeper and challenge the logic of the likes of Sam Harris, Russell Brand, Carl Sagan, and Richard Dawkins, of whom you obviously subscribe to. Again, an incredibly lazy attempt at a gotcha.

quote:

And you wonder how I can have a moral system without your Bible

On what basis do you define morality?

quote:

I was raised in a southern Baptist church. I held this as the truth.... then I realized that I believed for bad reasons

Your morality was influenced by a Christian upbringing no matter how much you try to claim otherwise. Your Christian parents and Christian surroundings shaped your morals and your ethics. Bit let's assume this is incorrect: How will your children learn right from wrong? What about your grandchildren?

On what basis do you define "good"?

quote:

Because I don’t need to cherry pick the good parts from an old book of stories to be a good person and neither do you.

Tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems. Throw away the solution and you get the problem back. Sometimes the problem has mutated or disappeared. Often it is still there as strong as it ever was.
- Donald Kingsbury
Posted by Hammer of Rod
Member since Dec 2015
56 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 9:25 pm to
Apologetic nonsense
Posted by Knartfocker
Member since Jun 2020
1656 posts
Posted on 3/11/21 at 9:27 pm to
On what basis do you define nonsense?

You've done nothing but withdraw and deflect in this entire thread. Surely there must be some synapses at work that can answer these very simple questions.

On what basis do you define morality?
On what basis do you define good?
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