re: How does it take 72 minutes

Also, if you listened to the scanner recording, they shut down the elevators to keep the suspect from being able to flee, but that meant the police had to walk up the 32 flights of stairs in full gear.

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And that was after setting off censors on the windows that were broken. Not to metion the rounds of ammunition it would take to fire at the windows so that they could be jackhammered(?) out



There's video on twitter of someone firing from a much lower floor, as well.

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The grassy knoll.

Seriously, that's some crazy shite if true.

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How does it take 72 minutes

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I'm not going to trash talk the guys because I don't know what happened, but it's been my experience that cops and even swat cops, are not trained to react decisively, aggressively, and independently in situations like this. They get bogged down in communication and delegation of authority. A lot of times they end up concentrating their uniformed guys (which makes them easier to manage) instead of spreading them out and moving quickly. There is a risk inherent in spreading your guys and equipment out, and without a clear picture of what is happening, it's difficult to make that decision.

Consider too that there were probably 5000 conflicting reports about what the situation actually was, and once you send some of your men one direction, it's hard to just turn them around and send them in another direction.

there are a lot of tasks that need to be completed as well, especially as an early responder. someone will typically have to delegate tasks, and to do that they need information, and to get information disseminated takes time.

there just isn't enough time and money in any PD to keep enough people trained to respond to this stuff. They aren't soldiers (hell, there is an incredibly small number of soldiers trained to respond to these things in the grand scheme of things). they are geared to handle the every day stuff, and not extreme circumstances like this. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part, I rarely expect them to move right in end it as quickly as possible. I have no doubt that the cops were giving it all they could. That is evident from the videos.


It may not be cost effective to give every city a "delta force" police unit, because it's not even a guarantee that your best men will be ready and in the right location soon enough to make more than a minor difference. In an elite operator's entire life, he may never get to actually perform at the level that we expect of him, due to circumstances completely out of his control.



The fact is, that if we want to have decisive and fast solutions to these situations, it's going to take an armed populace empowered with their own right to self defense. Proprietors and their clients and customers will have to foot the bill for that level of performance. You need more people with more training in more places to consistently be much better than average at this.

Thank you. Great response Carton. Appreciate it.

4:59

Rigggghhhhttttt

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Not that I would want more innocents to be shot, but if I'm a guy with a Glock 19 and I knew what happened to the last guy who went to that door, I'd be pretty hesitant to go kicking it in by myself.
He's hemmed in, but you don't know where in the room. But the shooter knows where the door is, and it's a lot easier shot for him to make.

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this goes back to a management issue. You can't send in one officer into a room with a pistol in a situation like that, and you cant have swat fire teams in 20 different places. It's just not possible to have enough resources all the time. So unless people want a virtual army of well trained assaulters for a once in a century event like this, then you kinda have to make do with what you have, or pursue non-state solutions

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Why do you not? He's hemmed in the room and a pistol will kill as well as any weapon.

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The honest answer is not a lot people armed with a pistol can breach a room against a combatant with an fully automatic rifle and live to tell about it. The assailant only has to cover the door while you have to worry about 4 corners and any cover in the room. That is the reason you breach with teams where each man knows what he is to cover as they enter the room. Throw in there that most cops are not really good pistol shots. Hell I am fantastic with a pistol and I wouldn't want to be that Huckleberry!

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Why do you not? He's hemmed in the room and a pistol will kill as well as any weapon.


The honest answer is not a lot people armed with a pistol can breach a room against a combatant with an fully automatic rifle and live to tell about it. The assailant only has to cover the door while you have to worry about 4 corners and any cover in the room. That is the reason you breach with teams where each man knows what he is to cover as they enter the room. Throw in there that most cops are not really good pistol shots. Hell I am fantastic with a pistol and I wouldn't want to be that Huckleberry!

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And let's also be clear- yes, a pistol can kill. But no, not as well as any weapon.

you have no idea if the shooter is wearing body armor or not, and you have to anticipate that he is. If so, a center mass shot with a pistol will not do much more than punching him in the chest. Maybe 5.7 or 7.62 Tokarev might, but I doubt the local cops have that, and I'd still not want to be facing full-auto .556 with any pistol.