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re: How does a place like the UK rid itself of of Wahhabism and Jihadists?

Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:09 am to
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:09 am to
You could try a couple of things. First, close any Hanbali derivative school or mosque. How Anjem Choudary could preach there until 2016 without censure is beyond me. You could ask Muslims themselves to suggest which mosques should be closed.

The second suggestion would be much more controversial, and would make a lot of people angry, but you could start funding Islamic schools of your own where the curriculum could be highly controlled. You could pretend that Islamic modernism won out in the beginning of the 20th century, and ignore the Islamist thinkers, effectively attempting to modernize and develop a mode of jurisprudence which is compatible with modernity. Or you could attempt to restart the Neoplatonic and Neoaristotelian conversation. I don't think any one in the West will like this idea in particular, as there would be immediate accusations of supporting Islam.

If the Saudis can spread the stuff all across the globe by merely funding schools and mosques, the response to that with funding of your own seems like it could produce similar results. And at the very least you could revive intellectual traditions that have been dormant.

The key for modernizing Islam relies in its method of jurisprudence. The Salafis especially hate the method the Shia have of justifying certain things through circuitous methods. There are complicated issues that have to be dealt with by Islamic scholars, specifically the idea of interest, as without interest Islamic countries will continue to lag behind in development, and the massive Sunni underclass that becomes the willing recruits of Islamists might grow even larger.

If you can somehow combat the Islamists without making the Islamists into martyrs and enshrining them as the protectors of Islam, hopefully Islamism would go the way of every other political enterprise that has been tried and has failed to take root in the Arab world.
Posted by Tunasntigers92
The Boot
Member since Sep 2014
28113 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:10 am to
Invite them into your home, comrade.
Posted by Tunasntigers92
The Boot
Member since Sep 2014
28113 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:11 am to
They all harbor radicals, that's the problem
Posted by funnystuff
Member since Nov 2012
9145 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:13 am to
Lifetime arrest for any actively practicing/plotting soldiers, deportation of all verified supporters/rioters, monitoring for verified sympathizers/wahhabis, freedom from intrusion for all other people who genuinely disapprove of their particular brand of evil.



But that's very easy to do poorly, so significant concessions need to be made in how they investigate who belongs in each tier. Even if that means we miss one, I believe.
Posted by Tunasntigers92
The Boot
Member since Sep 2014
28113 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:14 am to
Who would view it as being conducted poorly?
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:18 am to
quote:

They all harbor radicals, that's the problem



The radicals are highly correlated with Salafi/Wahabis. In fact nearly all the major terrorist groups are Salafi jihadis. The most notable exception is Hezbollah, which is Twelver Shia, and is mainly limited to Lebanon.
This post was edited on 6/13/17 at 12:59 am
Posted by Tunasntigers92
The Boot
Member since Sep 2014
28113 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:24 am to
Al-Shabaab
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
84759 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:30 am to
It doesn't even matter. The west is intent on suicide and won't do anything to preserve itself. Liberalism has won. Way to go, liberals. Enjoy your third world shithole.
Posted by TheGooner
Baton Rouwage
Member since Jul 2016
1262 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:40 am to
quote:

Wrong, there are ways, though they would not be popular.


Exactly.

The U.K. could start with simply not interfering with the English Defense League.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 12:57 am to
Al-Shabaab are Salafi jihadists too.
Posted by CCTider
Member since Dec 2014
25202 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 1:00 am to
quote:

How does a place like the UK rid itself of of Wahhabism


Stopping Saudi Arabian support, the country responsible for pushing this radical, violent version of Islam, would be a good start. Between finding terror groups and radical madrasas, they are the reason it became prevalent in the first place.
Posted by jonboy
Member since Sep 2003
7468 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 1:01 am to
quote:

How does a place like the UK rid itself of of Wahhabism and Jihadists?


Fire.
Posted by funnystuff
Member since Nov 2012
9145 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 1:16 am to
Ideally the people through the most transparent mechanism possible. But I really don't know about the full U.K. situation well enough to define where exactly that line should be or how exactly to enforce it.

As a broad approach though, I would say that the need for full transparency and fair judgement by the people is sufficiently important to fall under the category of things that might unfortunately cause us to miss some of the bad guys in the name of catching them the right way
Posted by funnystuff
Member since Nov 2012
9145 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 1:17 am to
Don't give up
Posted by BamaScoop
Panama City Beach, Florida
Member since May 2007
56808 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 2:03 am to
It will happen during the Third World War that is coming soon. We will have to kill those mother Tucker's to maintain our way of life and it is coming.
Posted by AbuTheMonkey
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
8646 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 2:10 am to
quote:

You could try a couple of things. First, close any Hanbali derivative school or mosque. How Anjem Choudary could preach there until 2016 without censure is beyond me. You could ask Muslims themselves to suggest which mosques should be closed.


Agree w/r/t to Choudary as he was openly inciting violence (I don't believe, for instance, he would've had lasted anywhere near as long in our much more liberal speech environment - the Islamic vote is pretty powerful in the UK), but I am always suspect about the state, especially a European state, monitoring speech in such a manner. That could end up back-firing majorly. While it might not do as much good as we hope in the short-run, smashing that sort of thing underground makes it much harder to track and control in the long-run.

quote:


The second suggestion would be much more controversial, and would make a lot of people angry, but you could start funding Islamic schools of your own where the curriculum could be highly controlled. You could pretend that Islamic modernism won out in the beginning of the 20th century, and ignore the Islamist thinkers, effectively attempting to modernize and develop a mode of jurisprudence which is compatible with modernity. Or you could attempt to restart the Neoplatonic and Neoaristotelian conversation. I don't think any one in the West will like this idea in particular, as there would be immediate accusations of supporting Islam.


That's not a bad idea at all, but I don't think it's sticky enough to actually work. It needs to be organic. People of any culture and religion tend to be able to see through charades given a little bit of time and enough exposure. How an organic movement would actually be fomented is beyond me.

quote:

The key for modernizing Islam relies in its method of jurisprudence. The Salafis especially hate the method the Shia have of justifying certain things through circuitous methods. There are complicated issues that have to be dealt with by Islamic scholars, specifically the idea of interest, as without interest Islamic countries will continue to lag behind in development, and the massive Sunni underclass that becomes the willing recruits of Islamists might grow even larger.


I actually have a bit of experience here, and the Islamic usury laws aren't really that hard to get around if you have a bit of know-how. What they're really guarding against is true usury - think pay-day loans, predatory car loans with 27% interest on young kids, and the like - and there are actually some Islamic banking principles that are pretty forward-thinking and sound (namely, Mudarabah and Musharaka), and I say that as someone who believes U.S. credit has gotten way too tight post-2008 and that market interest rates are the ultimate and final arbiter of risk in a functioning economic system (i.e., I believe pay-day loans actually serve an economic good). And even all that said, Islamic banking doesn't hold all that many assets of Muslims, even in the Middle East. It's also funny to me because Islamic financial institutions love themselves some quite risky assets like VC (witness: the Saudi sovereign wealth fund buying 4% of Uber), PE, and real estate and can sometimes eschew straight up boring and predictable assets like sovereign debt for, ahem, "Sharia" reasons. Yea, OK, whatever you say.

It's a difficult problem, and I know you are well-read on this topic. The Peninsulars are the equivalent of the Spanish and Portuguese in the 1500's right now - just incredibly zealous (they only united about ninety years ago - similar to the reconquista), really rich, and want to ideologically dominate their world, but they have a power check in the U.S., China, and Europe that didn't exist at the time.
Posted by mauser
Orange Beach
Member since Nov 2008
26965 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 4:18 am to
Oliver Cromwell
Posted by LSU Patrick
Member since Jan 2009
77945 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 5:25 am to
Import people from countries that harbor and/or support terrorism. Allow Sharia law courts. Admonish people that want to secure their countries boarders, place temporary travel bans on high risk populations, and believe the right to bear arms is pertinent to liberty.
Posted by CCTider
Member since Dec 2014
25202 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 6:56 am to
quote:


It will happen during the Third World War that is coming soon. We will have to kill those mother Tucker's to maintain our way of life and it is coming.


The problem is, who are you fighting? It wouldn't be any particular nation. There is no middle Eastern weapons manufacturing industry. They buy it from US and other Western countries, maybe even China.

Plus. Do you have any idea how much money from the middle East is invested in our economy? It's significant.
Posted by el Gaucho
He/They
Member since Dec 2010
59236 posts
Posted on 6/13/17 at 7:35 am to
Invent a std for goats that is fatal to humans

Eta: that doesn't hurt the goat

Although the uk might lose a bunch of Scotsmen on accident
This post was edited on 6/13/17 at 7:36 am
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