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How do you balance free market capitalism with what Saudi Arabia and China are doing?
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:35 pm
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:35 pm
I’m all about free trade but we’re seeing that other countries have found ways to use this to undermine our own security interests. SA is flooding the market with cheap oil which will bankrupt our shale producers...the vehicle which made us energy independent. Without them we’re once again beholden to foreign producers.
China used free trade to undermine our manufacturing base and put us in a position where we depend on them for everything. They’ve also funneled this money into building their military and becoming a threat...all while beating down their own people. And they use their money to buy off anyone that can stop them.
We need to restructure our trade deals and dependence on these countries even if it means interfering with free trade. I don’t know how we do this without restrictions on imports of vital goods...which can only be down with price caps or tariffs...which I deplore. I also think we should only have free trade with allies or countries with free markets and flow of capital...not state owned resources.
Tough problem...but if we’re going to be spending trillions I’d rather see it rebuilding our internal manufacturing base in lieu of helicopter money or bailing out banks. Tell these countries to frick themselves and get our house in order. If we cut off our consumer dollars they’ll be crippled.
What am I missing?
China used free trade to undermine our manufacturing base and put us in a position where we depend on them for everything. They’ve also funneled this money into building their military and becoming a threat...all while beating down their own people. And they use their money to buy off anyone that can stop them.
We need to restructure our trade deals and dependence on these countries even if it means interfering with free trade. I don’t know how we do this without restrictions on imports of vital goods...which can only be down with price caps or tariffs...which I deplore. I also think we should only have free trade with allies or countries with free markets and flow of capital...not state owned resources.
Tough problem...but if we’re going to be spending trillions I’d rather see it rebuilding our internal manufacturing base in lieu of helicopter money or bailing out banks. Tell these countries to frick themselves and get our house in order. If we cut off our consumer dollars they’ll be crippled.
What am I missing?
11
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:39 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
How do you balance free market capitalism
In its purest sense, you don’t. It is what it is. Those companies that can drive down costs and reduce competition do so.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:40 pm to Jyrdis
True but the reality of how that can weaponozed needs to be considered.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:42 pm to SquatchDawg
Besides for gutting the American heartland and trading 60k factory jobs for 20k service jobs, our critical supply chains should not be dependent on China. The truth is they never would have been if it wasn’t for our economic and political elite (along with people like IB) betraying us to line their pocketbooks. In a just world, they would be punished. I hope trump onshores our manufacturing and we ritually humiliate China forever.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:43 pm to SquatchDawg
Many confuse Free Trade with Capitalism, so much so that they believe you can't have one without the other. There's no "Free Trade" with Russia, Saudi Arabia, and China, and really, the rest of the World. The Principles of "fairness" in Capitalism is out the window beyond our borders. We have to bring the enemy to their "trade" knees to protect our own economy.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:46 pm to SquatchDawg
You are missing the 1963 DEMOCRAT entry into the congressional record that warned the USA citizen that the communists nations want the USA to remove restraints and trade with communist nations as but 1 venue to bring down our nation.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:46 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
SA is flooding the market with cheap oil which will bankrupt our shale producers...the vehicle which made us energy independent. Without them we’re once again beholden to foreign producers.
Has the resource disappeared? Just because a bunch poorly run shitcos, that were going to Bk anyway just sooner now, go away doesn’t mean the resource can’t be exploited when it’s economic. And it was only economic because OPEC and Russia were cutting their production while shale shitcos continued to drill themselves into subeconomic prices while piling on debt.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:48 pm to Jyrdis
quote:
In its purest sense, you don’t. It is what it is. Those companies that can drive down costs and reduce competition do so.
That's not what the OP is talking about. Do you think human trafficking is the free markets at work? The non-human trafficking sex workers just need to drive costs down?
We have a "free market" where we can do business with Chinese companies but China is far from a free market. They are incredibly oppressive. So if you buy things from China then you are kind of not really participating in a free market unless you think forcing certain goods to be produced by gunpoint is free markets.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:49 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
China used free trade to undermine our manufacturing base and put us in a position where we depend on them for everything. They’ve also funneled this money into building their military and becoming a threat...all while beating down their own people. And they use their money to buy off anyone that can stop them.
China hasn’t done a damn thing that the DC Corporatocracy didn’t allow them to do. Go listen to Josh Hawley on Tucker Carlson tonight. Hawley admits that many average Americans knew offshoring US industrial/manufacturing to China was a colossal mistake when it was being done but it was done anyway.....care to guess why?
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:50 pm to SquatchDawg
You don't. This is the nasty side to transition to a service based economy.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:51 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
I’m all about free trade but we’re seeing that other countries have found ways to use this to undermine our own security interests.
The world can't be explained in an Econ 101 class like IB Chinaman wishes. Glad you're realizing it.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:55 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Go listen to Josh Hawley on Tucker Carlson tonight. Hawley admits that many average Americans knew offshoring US industrial/manufacturing to China was a colossal mistake when it was being done but it was done anyway.....care to guess why?
I was howling about it during HW's tenure.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 9:59 pm to BeepNode
quote:
That's not what the OP is talking about.
I guess you missed the part where I said “In it’s purest sense.”
Free market capitalism revolves around the ability of business to freely engage their mutual exchanges of trade. When another business comes in and disrupts that because they can do so at a lower average cost then free market capitalism exists. It doesn’t matter if this is at a local or international level. It’s still, free market capitalism. This, of course assumes no trade or govt barriers.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:00 pm to cwill
quote:
Has the resource disappeared? Just because a bunch poorly run shitcos, that were going to Bk anyway just sooner now, go away doesn’t mean the resource can’t be exploited when it’s economic. And it was only economic because OPEC and Russia were cutting their production while shale shitcos continued to drill themselves into subeconomic prices while piling on debt.
You mean the drill baby drill mindset might have some negative consequences?
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:11 pm to Powerman
quote:
You mean the drill baby drill mindset might have some negative consequences?
No. Not long term. Extenuating temporary circumstances will not decrease the long term value of a needed commodity.
Now the long term need for that commodity may be another argument in a few decades. But not now. .
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:19 pm to BeepNode
quote:
We have a "free market" where we can do business with Chinese companies but China is far from a free market. They are incredibly oppressive. So if you buy things from China then you are kind of not really participating in a free market unless you think forcing certain goods to be produced by gunpoint is free markets.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:23 pm to Jjdoc
The best remedy is for Americans to save, not spend it on spontaneous purchases.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:24 pm to SquatchDawg
quote:
How do you balance free market capitalism with what Saudi Arabia and China are doing
You fricking nuke em.
Kinda kills their ability to produce.
You come in and close the gap they left.
World problem solved. Who wants another beer?
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:26 pm to Powerman
quote:
You mean the drill baby drill mindset might have some negative consequences
Yeah, you end up relying on OPEC and Russia to prop up pricing for your dumbass financial decisions. Most of these fricktards on this board have no idea how much of a shite show the energy biz has been for the last 10 years.
Posted on 4/1/20 at 10:44 pm to Jyrdis
My point is that free market capitalism isn’t just an economic issue but an issue of national security. We don’t freely trade defense secrets or weapon technology (at least we shouldn’t). We should protect certain resources and manufactured goods as much as we do military secrets.
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