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Message
re: Govt Assistance and Minimum Wage
Posted on 2/17/18 at 6:20 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
Posted on 2/17/18 at 6:20 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
The worker isn't "getting a raise" if the Fed Gov points a gun at the owner and demands he pay more. A worker "gets a raise" by being more productive and having the owner WANT to retain him.
I understand you are trying to "defend meritocracy" but when does the ethics of a business come into play.
The fact is, as long as a business is stationed in a country, it has to follow the rules of that country. If that business wants cheap labor so bad, then by all means they can go.
We've had higher productivity for the past two decades, but the wages are not keeping up with it. I agree that work performance should be the 1st indicator for employees.
But for many places, its profit margins that are the 1st indicator and even if a employee deserves a raise, they never get them.
"Blame the worker for x" is such a fallacy that its not worth debating. Who cares what we ASSume regarding someone's life decisions. I'm don't want janitors making surgeon money, but everyone deserves a living wage.
Employers only want to cut costs by any means necessary. And sadly many companies would rather cut good people so they can operate on the Cheap.
Am I supposed be threatened by immigrants who live in a poorer country and by extension have lower SE needs? Not my problem or any other American's.
This post was edited on 2/17/18 at 6:21 pm
3
Posted on 2/17/18 at 6:44 pm to volod
quote:
but everyone deserves a living wage.
Why?
Posted on 2/17/18 at 6:53 pm to volod
quote:
but everyone deserves a living wage.
No.
Posted on 2/17/18 at 7:44 pm to Ebbandflow
No one “deserves” anything! You are given what you earn and you earn based on your skills. Quit preaching your left wing bullshite.
Posted on 2/17/18 at 8:02 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
If someone is being paid a wage that is not liveable, they will require assistance. If they make enough to live, they will not be eligible.
What about those people who make minimum wage, are not and government assistance, and yet are alive? Wouldn't that indicate they were making a livable wage? Or are you contending that literally every person in minimum wage is also in government assistance? The reason to oppose arbitrary minimum wage hikes is because they do not help. The drive up prices on everything, which is passed on to the consumer. The people making minimum wage now have to pay more for everything and are back in exactly the same position in short order. Meanwhile the folks in the middle class also suffer from the inflation but are not getting past increases of their own. This is one thing that destroys the middle class. Minimum wage jobs are not jobs you stay in for a career, they are meant to be first jobs and then you move up by showing the barest levels of competency or value to your company
This post was edited on 2/17/18 at 8:08 pm
Posted on 2/17/18 at 8:10 pm to tigerfan182
quote:
No one “deserves” anything! You are given what you earn and you earn based on your skills. Quit preaching your left wing bullshite.
Let me level with you all for tonight.
I agree that in a capitalist society, there needs to be an economic balance between employee and employer.
Minimum isn't a perfect system, but an artificial floor is effective at reducing exploitation. And the deciding factor on employment and raise is still left to the employer.
All that said, in a more perfect system, the majority opinion on here is correct in that people of higher value should earn more and not need these floors.
But the reality is that most Western countries have a HUGE welfare state, which creates a dilemma.
1. Pay workers enough to keep them working at a minimal level of comfort.
2. Allow more people into the welfare state, increasing the taxes we all inevitably pay.
I don't think this system is ideal, but its the Red Pill of this entire argument.
Posted on 2/17/18 at 8:19 pm to ChineseBandit58
I know I’m really late with this response, but
This is an excellent synopsis of current conservative thinking and really very accurate.
All choices are not equal. Choices include things your parents do etc.
We need to stop trying to make the outcomes of all choices be equal.
I ask everyone who espouses these ideas of helping those who are l as fortunate to show me where I’m there plan is the part where it creates fewer of the ‘ less fortunate ‘
quote:
the past half century, we have intervened in the operation of these evolutionary processes. We have set up a culture that does not recognize that any choices are really 'bad' and that whatever they do, they should be shielded from the consequeces of those decisions. Of course this has resulted in a cultural 'progression' that breeds more poor life choices and builds resentment from those who are financially penalized to protect a favored culture from its inherent poor choices.
This is an excellent synopsis of current conservative thinking and really very accurate.
All choices are not equal. Choices include things your parents do etc.
We need to stop trying to make the outcomes of all choices be equal.
I ask everyone who espouses these ideas of helping those who are l as fortunate to show me where I’m there plan is the part where it creates fewer of the ‘ less fortunate ‘
Posted on 2/17/18 at 10:00 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:says who
If someone is being paid a wage that is not liveable, they will require assistance.
Posted on 2/17/18 at 11:36 pm to yallallcrazy
quote:
ask everyone who espouses these ideas of helping those who are l as fortunate to show me where I’m there plan is the part where it creates fewer of the ‘ less fortunate ‘
English, mother fricker. Do you speak it?
Posted on 2/18/18 at 12:10 am to volod
quote:
but everyone deserves a living wage.
If this is your premise, all your conclusions are wrong
Posted on 2/18/18 at 12:20 am to Ebbandflow
Here's a thought: It shoukd be hard to deal with the system if you are on gov't assistance. It is like a gravy train now.
Checks and balances.
If you are caught commuting fraud it should be a really bad experience that it keeps others from trying to do the same.
Checks and balances.
If you are caught commuting fraud it should be a really bad experience that it keeps others from trying to do the same.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 2:26 am to Cosmo
quote:
Govt Assistance and Minimum Wage
Again minimum wage is what teenagers make at burger king
If you are 40 making minimum wage you have fricked up along the way
No doubt true....but how does that negate the fact that there ain't no way to live on it? If your employees are eligible for public assistance and you are making ends meet you are a welfare queen, period. It is what it is....
Posted on 2/18/18 at 2:30 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
Either way, they deserve to pay rent.
Deserving has nothing to do with it....they HAVE to pay rent OR we have to tolerate them living under bridges OR we have to tolerate them dying in the gutter. People eith are living or dead...there ain't no inbetween
Posted on 2/18/18 at 6:50 am to Ebbandflow
You haven't been paying mucb attention have you, OP. If what you say was even remotely true, McCain and Romney would have won their elections and Trump would have lost the primary.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:38 pm to beerJeep
It would benefit a significant portion of the workforce.
"The value of the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968, at $9.68 in inflation-adjusted terms. Based on forecasts of inflation, a $15 minimum wage in 2024 would be worth about $12.50 in 2016 dollars, representing a substantial increase above what this country has ever experienced. In 2024, $15 would also likely put the value of the minimum wage close to an unprecedentedly high 60 percent of the median wage. (Back in the 1960s, the minimum wage was around 50 percent of the median.) Almost 30 percent of the workforce would be expected to benefit from the proposed raise by the time the increase was fully phased in, a level far higher than the 10 percent of workers who’ve benefited from the more modest raises of recent decades."
This of course would raise many people out of the below poverty line which would alleviate many government assistance needs putting money back in the taxpayers hands to spend more money in the economy. And of course the people who are making more money or going to spend more in the economy as well.
Prospect
"A $15 minimum wage by 2024 would generate $144 billion in higher wages for workers and would also benefit their communities. Because lower-paid workers spend much of their extra earnings, this injection of wages will help stimulate the economy and spur greater business activity and job growth."
EPI
I'm about to dispel your bullshite myths real quick:
"
Fewer than 10 percent are teenagers, and more than half are prime-age adults between the ages of 25 and 54.
More than half (56 percent) are women.
Nearly two-thirds work full time.
Nearly half (47 percent) have some college experience.
28 percent have children.
The average worker with a spouse or child who would benefit from a $15 minimum wage provides 64 percent of his or her family’s total income."
It looks like most of your talking points are starting to vanish.
"Not just on the coasts, but all across the country, workers will soon need at least $15 an hour
By 2024, in areas all across the United States, a single adult without children will need at least $31,200—what a full-time worker making $15 an hour earns annually—to achieve a modest but adequate standard of living. Workers in costlier areas and those with children will need even more, according to projections based on the Economic Policy Institute’s Family Budget Calculator.7
For example, in rural Missouri, a single adult without children will need $32,502 ($15.63 per hour for a full-time worker) by 2024 to cover typical rent, food, transportation, and other basic living costs.
In larger metro areas of the South and Southwest—where the majority of the Southern population lives—a single adult without children will need even more than $15 an hour by 2024 to get by: $16.65 in Fort Worth, $16.54 in Phoenix, and $18.40 in Miami.
In more expensive regions of the country, a single adult without children will need far more than $15 an hour by 2024 to cover the basics: $25.53 in New York City, $20.47 in Los Angeles, and $24.71 in Washington, D.C."
I can keep going but for now I would like you to digest what I posted and try to go point-for-point with me because I'm going to push your shite in for everyone to see.
All that I see in your post and in this thread is a bunch of made-up reasons why it would not be good that are not backed up by any numbers or supported at all. The burden of proof should be on you to show why it's a bad idea when it would benefit tons of Americans.
The truth is that you're just a partisan Hack, thinking that all of your hand me down talking points are actually relevant or truthful.
I love how you're accusing me of being emotional when all you're doing is beating your chest and standing behind made up information of why it's so bad for the American public. You know some emotion is allowed I'm sure that many of the families that it would be affected by raising the minimum wage could shed some light on that probably.
"Tax Cuts for the rich. Deregulation for the powerful. Wage suppression for everyone else. These are the tenets of trickle-down economics, the conservatives’ age-old strategy for advantaging the interests of the rich and powerful over those of the middle class and poor. The articles in Trickle-Downers are devoted, first, to exposing and refuting these lies, but equally, to reminding Americans that these claims aren’t made because they are true. Rather, they are made because they are the most effective way elites have found to bully, confuse and intimidate middle- and working-class voters. Trickle-down claims are not real economics. They are negotiating strategies. Here at the Prospect, we hope to help you win that negotiation."
Hey you're a little bitch boy of people like this.
"The value of the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968, at $9.68 in inflation-adjusted terms. Based on forecasts of inflation, a $15 minimum wage in 2024 would be worth about $12.50 in 2016 dollars, representing a substantial increase above what this country has ever experienced. In 2024, $15 would also likely put the value of the minimum wage close to an unprecedentedly high 60 percent of the median wage. (Back in the 1960s, the minimum wage was around 50 percent of the median.) Almost 30 percent of the workforce would be expected to benefit from the proposed raise by the time the increase was fully phased in, a level far higher than the 10 percent of workers who’ve benefited from the more modest raises of recent decades."
This of course would raise many people out of the below poverty line which would alleviate many government assistance needs putting money back in the taxpayers hands to spend more money in the economy. And of course the people who are making more money or going to spend more in the economy as well.
Prospect
"A $15 minimum wage by 2024 would generate $144 billion in higher wages for workers and would also benefit their communities. Because lower-paid workers spend much of their extra earnings, this injection of wages will help stimulate the economy and spur greater business activity and job growth."
EPI
I'm about to dispel your bullshite myths real quick:
"
Fewer than 10 percent are teenagers, and more than half are prime-age adults between the ages of 25 and 54.
More than half (56 percent) are women.
Nearly two-thirds work full time.
Nearly half (47 percent) have some college experience.
28 percent have children.
The average worker with a spouse or child who would benefit from a $15 minimum wage provides 64 percent of his or her family’s total income."
It looks like most of your talking points are starting to vanish.
"Not just on the coasts, but all across the country, workers will soon need at least $15 an hour
By 2024, in areas all across the United States, a single adult without children will need at least $31,200—what a full-time worker making $15 an hour earns annually—to achieve a modest but adequate standard of living. Workers in costlier areas and those with children will need even more, according to projections based on the Economic Policy Institute’s Family Budget Calculator.7
For example, in rural Missouri, a single adult without children will need $32,502 ($15.63 per hour for a full-time worker) by 2024 to cover typical rent, food, transportation, and other basic living costs.
In larger metro areas of the South and Southwest—where the majority of the Southern population lives—a single adult without children will need even more than $15 an hour by 2024 to get by: $16.65 in Fort Worth, $16.54 in Phoenix, and $18.40 in Miami.
In more expensive regions of the country, a single adult without children will need far more than $15 an hour by 2024 to cover the basics: $25.53 in New York City, $20.47 in Los Angeles, and $24.71 in Washington, D.C."
I can keep going but for now I would like you to digest what I posted and try to go point-for-point with me because I'm going to push your shite in for everyone to see.
All that I see in your post and in this thread is a bunch of made-up reasons why it would not be good that are not backed up by any numbers or supported at all. The burden of proof should be on you to show why it's a bad idea when it would benefit tons of Americans.
The truth is that you're just a partisan Hack, thinking that all of your hand me down talking points are actually relevant or truthful.
I love how you're accusing me of being emotional when all you're doing is beating your chest and standing behind made up information of why it's so bad for the American public. You know some emotion is allowed I'm sure that many of the families that it would be affected by raising the minimum wage could shed some light on that probably.
"Tax Cuts for the rich. Deregulation for the powerful. Wage suppression for everyone else. These are the tenets of trickle-down economics, the conservatives’ age-old strategy for advantaging the interests of the rich and powerful over those of the middle class and poor. The articles in Trickle-Downers are devoted, first, to exposing and refuting these lies, but equally, to reminding Americans that these claims aren’t made because they are true. Rather, they are made because they are the most effective way elites have found to bully, confuse and intimidate middle- and working-class voters. Trickle-down claims are not real economics. They are negotiating strategies. Here at the Prospect, we hope to help you win that negotiation."
Hey you're a little bitch boy of people like this.
This post was edited on 2/18/18 at 10:45 pm
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:42 pm to volod
quote:
Let me level with you all for tonight.
I agree that in a capitalist society, there needs to be an economic balance between employee and employer.
Minimum isn't a perfect system, but an artificial floor is effective at reducing exploitation. And the deciding factor on employment and raise is still left to the employer.
All that said, in a more perfect system, the majority opinion on here is correct in that people of higher value should earn more and not need these floors.
But the reality is that most Western countries have a HUGE welfare state, which creates a dilemma.
1. Pay workers enough to keep them working at a minimal level of comfort.
2. Allow more people into the welfare state, increasing the taxes we all inevitably pay.
I don't think this system is ideal, but its the Red Pill of this entire argument.
Well said but good luck getting through to all of the people that have been indoctrinated by trickle down economics top 1% earners. They would just rather tell you how it's bad for everyone if the minimum wage increase happened with zero numbers then it would to just create a floor which helps us all
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:51 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
Well said but good luck getting through to all of the people that have been indoctrinated by trickle down economics top 1% earners. They would just rather tell you how it's bad for everyone if the minimum wage increase happened with zero numbers then it would to just create a floor which helps us all
You've been given very valid reasons in this thread whe a national min wage makes absolutely no economic sense.
Any min wage (if used) should be state or even local.
Working people do not live on minimum wage. They make more. Min wage is starting/training.
You're just repeating shite you've read on DU
This post was edited on 2/18/18 at 10:53 pm
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:55 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
You've been given very valid reasons in this thread whe a national min wage makes absolutely no economic sense.
Any min wage (if used) should be state or even local.
Working people do not live on minimum wage. They make more. Min wage is starting/training.
You're just repeating shite you've read on DU
Why don't you scroll up a couple of post to where I actually provide economic numbers of how it benefits and stop trying to discredit
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:56 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Working people do not live on minimum wage. They make more. Min wage is starting/training.
This is an absolute myth. Again, scroll up two posts before. Actually brought you some numbers that might be eye opening
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