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Started By
Message
re: Govt Assistance and Minimum Wage
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:59 pm to Cosmo
Posted on 2/18/18 at 10:59 pm to Cosmo
quote:
Again minimum wage is what teenagers make at burger king
In 2014, 77.2 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.7 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 1.3 million earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.7 million had wages below the federal minimum."
Wrong
1
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:06 pm to Ebbandflow
cute. Super duper cute. Prospect.org? Really? That's your source?!?! Oh man this is gonna be easy peasy. For instance. Instead of projection, let's look at real world examples. Such as Seattle. As you see here
quote:
The lost income associated with the hours reductions exceeds the gain associated with the net wage increase of 3.1 percent .... [W]e compute that the average low-wage employee was paid $1,897 per month. The reduction in hours would cost the average employee $179 per month, while the wage increase would recoup only $54 of this loss, leaving a net loss of $125 per month (6.6 percent), which is sizable for a low-wage worker,"
Wait? What? No way! Hm....
quote:
The study was conducted by researchers for the University of Washington's Daniel J. Evans School of Public Policy and Governance and was commissioned by the city of Seattle when it passed an ordinance in 2014 putting the city's minimum wage at $15, phasing it in over a period of years. The city rate increased to $13 an hour at the beginning of last year.
Ask and you shall receive Seattle. I know the pill is hard to swallow.
quote:
A $15 minimum wage by 2024 would generate $144 billion in higher wages for workers and would also benefit their communities. Because lower-paid workers spend much of their extra earnings, this injection of wages will help stimulate the economy and spur greater business activity and job growth."
And what does this article say about the relationship between cost of employment to the cost of goods and services? Oh.... It doesn't say anything about them. I wonder why.
quote:
can keep going but for now I would like you to digest what I posted and try to go point-for-point with me because I'm going to push your shite in for everyone to see.
Please keep going. I want the world to see your ignorance. Oh.... And once again, you're the only one who's getting their fudge packed.
quote:
All that I see in your post and in this thread is a bunch of made-up reasons why it would not be good that are not backed up by any numbers or supported at all. The burden of proof should be on you to show why it's a bad idea when it would benefit tons of Americans.
Look up. Seattle found out after they paid to have a study done on just this topic. They didn't like the outcome. Neither will you.
quote:
The truth is that you're just a partisan Hack, thinking that all of your hand me down talking points are actually relevant or truthful.
Yawn. I own a business with 10 employees who make min wage, 3 shift managers and one store manager. If I raise the 10s pay to the 3, and the 3 to the 1, and increase the 1s pay likewise, what must I do to offset this massive increase in wages I have to pay? Is it
A) raise the cost of goods and services, disproportionatly affecting those who make min wage.
B) give less hours to my workers
C) fire a few employees
D) all of the above
quote:
love how you're accusing me of being emotional when all you're doing is beating your chest and standing behind made up information of why it's so bad for the American public. You know some emotion is allowed I'm sure that many of the families that it would be affected by raising the minimum wage could shed some light on that probably.
Nope. I'm standing behind cold hard economic facts. Sorry you live in lala land and can't see the forest from the trees.
quote:
Tax Cuts for the rich. Deregulation for the powerful. Wage suppression for everyone else. These are the tenets of trickle-down economics, the conservatives’ age-old strategy for advantaging the interests of the rich and powerful over those of the middle class and poor. The articles in Trickle-Downers are devoted, first, to exposing and refuting these lies, but equally, to reminding Americans that these claims aren’t made because they are true. Rather, they are made because they are the most effective way elites have found to bully, confuse and intimidate middle- and working-class voters. Trickle-down claims are not real economics. They are negotiating strategies. Here at the Prospect, we hope to help you win that negotiation."
And this, mon frere, is why your links are complete horse shite. Try again tomorrow. I'll be here.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:14 pm to beerJeep
Oh and let's not forget that automation is absolutely destroying the low wage job market. As the minimum wage goes up, we need less workers. All increasing the min wage does is hasten automation and the elimination of low skill jobs.
Sooooo just another point in the "raising minimum wage hurts those who make it" column.
Sooooo just another point in the "raising minimum wage hurts those who make it" column.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:16 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
If someone is being paid a wage that is not liveable, they will require assistance. If they make enough to live, they will not be eligible.
1. What the labor is worth is what it should earn
2. How people manage their lives and money isn't everyone else's responsibility. You can be smart with money, live with others to cut down costs of living, save up or not.. It's up to the individual.
We have it great here in America. It sounds nice to say we all deserve a house with a white picket fence....but the reality is, stop being stupidly unrealistic.
Minimum wage should not be a living wage. Regardless of the semantics debate about its original intent.
This post was edited on 2/18/18 at 11:17 pm
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:19 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
Employers will pay MORE when the labor market demands MORE by scarcity.
quote:
So what would be the difference between that and raising minimum wage?
Just
We are screwed.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:20 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
Among those paid by the hour, 1.3 million earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.7 million had wages below the federal minimum."
Probably HS seniors are "unemployable" adults.
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:25 pm to Ebbandflow
quote:
The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 3.3 percent in 2015 to 2.7 percent in 2016. This remains well below the percentage of 13.4 recorded in 1979, when data were first collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
Gubment source
quote:
Age. Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 10 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of workers age 25 and older. (See tables 1 and 7.)
Gender. Among workers who were paid hourly rates in 2016, about 3 percent of women and about 2 percent of men had wages at or below the prevailing federal minimum. (See table 1.)
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:27 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
Just
We are screwed.
It's mind boggling, but I've tried to be civil. I think I've passed my limit though
This post was edited on 2/18/18 at 11:28 pm
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:46 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
It's mind boggling, but I've tried to be civil. I think I've passed my limit though
It's depressing. Lsupimp is right. It's the Tyranny of the Igmorant. OP started this thread, guns blazing, ostensibly prepared to right the wrongthink of the world. We can't get through one page before he betrays the fact that he sees a rise in demand for unskilled labor driving up wages identically to a fiat raise in the mandated minimum wage, regardless of market demand. How is it possible that someone like that would approach this topic thinking that he has the high ground?
Like, what the frick are we even doing here?
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:48 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
Like, what the frick are we even doing here?
You're right, I think I'm just frustrating myself...
Posted on 2/18/18 at 11:50 pm to Ebbandflow
Love the mindset of the plantation left.
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:04 am to RockyMtnTigerWDE
Raise min wage, watch automation make those jobs obsolete, start complaining about greed and "the 1%" for putting people out of work
It's a viscous cycle.
It's a viscous cycle.
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:08 am to RogerTheShrubber
Truth
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:09 am to beerJeep
Oh oh of course. Because you don't trust the sites, the sourced info is worthless. Nice.
Btw, there were two Seattle studies done. The one youre linking is under heavy scrutiny for incomplete data based on several parameters.
NY Times
Of course raising the minimum wage would affect the cost of goods and services. But there has been a study done that shows that people will still pay the minimal amount of increase that would be incurred from such a move.
"In the above examples, a higher minimum wage will raise labor costs. But many companies can recoup cost increases in the form of higher prices; because most of their customers are not poor, the net effect is to transfer money from higher-income to lower-income families. In addition, companies that pay more often benefit from higher employee productivity, offsetting the growth in labor costs. Justin Wolfers and Jan Zilinsky identified several reasons why higher wages boost productivity: They motivate people to work harder, they attract higher-skilled workers, and they reduce employee turnover, lowering hiring and training costs, among other things. If fewer people quit their jobs, that also reduces the number of people who are out of work at any one time because they’re looking for something better. A higher minimum wage motivates more people to enter the labor force, raising both employment and output. Finally, higher pay increases workers’ buying power. Because poor people spend a relatively large proportion of their income, a higher minimum wage can boost overall economic activity and stimulate economic growth, creating more jobs. All of these factors vastly complicate the two-dimensional diagram taught in Economics 101 and help explain why a higher minimum wage does not necessarily throw people out of work. The supply-and-demand diagram is a good conceptual starting point for thinking about the minimum wage. But on its own, it has limited predictive value in the much more complex real world."
"Even if a higher minimum wage does cause some people to lose their jobs, that cost has to be balanced against the benefit of greater earnings for other low-income workers. A study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that a $10.10 minimum would reduce employment by 500,000 jobs but would increase incomes for most poor families, moving 900,000 people above the poverty line. Similarly, a recent paper by the economist Arindrajit Dube finds that a 10 percent raise in the minimum wage should reduce the number of families living in poverty by around 2 percent to 3 percent. The economists polled in the 2013 Chicago Booth study thought that increasing the minimum wage would be a good idea because its potential impact on employment would be outweighed by the benefits to people who were still able to find jobs. Raising the minimum wage would also reduce inequality by narrowing the pay gap between low-income and higher-income workers."
"The restaurant industry has been a major force behind the advertising and public relations campaigns opposing the minimum wage, including many of the op-ed articles repeating the basic lesson of supply and demand. For example, Andy Puzder, the CEO of a restaurant company (and President-elect Trump’s nominee to lead the Labor Department), explained in The Wall Street Journal, “Every retailer has locations that are profitable, but only marginally. Increased labor costs can push these stores over the line and into the loss column. When that happens, companies that want to stay competitive will close them.” As a result, “broad increases in the minimum wage destroy jobs and hurt the working-class Americans that they are supposed to help.” A recent study by researchers at the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, however, found that higher minimum wages have not affected either the number of restaurants or the number of people that they employ, contrary to the industry’s dire predictions, while they have modestly increased workers’ pay. Because restaurant closings do not seem to increase, the implication is that paying employees more cuts into excess profits—profits beyond those necessary to stay in business. Or, as the financial commentator Barry Ritholtz put it, “raising the minimum wage works as a wealth transfer, from shareholders and franchisees, to minimum wage workers.” But instead of greedily demanding higher profits, industry executives can invoke Economics 101, which provides a simple explanation of the world that serves their interests."
The Atlantic
Btw, there were two Seattle studies done. The one youre linking is under heavy scrutiny for incomplete data based on several parameters.
NY Times
Of course raising the minimum wage would affect the cost of goods and services. But there has been a study done that shows that people will still pay the minimal amount of increase that would be incurred from such a move.
"In the above examples, a higher minimum wage will raise labor costs. But many companies can recoup cost increases in the form of higher prices; because most of their customers are not poor, the net effect is to transfer money from higher-income to lower-income families. In addition, companies that pay more often benefit from higher employee productivity, offsetting the growth in labor costs. Justin Wolfers and Jan Zilinsky identified several reasons why higher wages boost productivity: They motivate people to work harder, they attract higher-skilled workers, and they reduce employee turnover, lowering hiring and training costs, among other things. If fewer people quit their jobs, that also reduces the number of people who are out of work at any one time because they’re looking for something better. A higher minimum wage motivates more people to enter the labor force, raising both employment and output. Finally, higher pay increases workers’ buying power. Because poor people spend a relatively large proportion of their income, a higher minimum wage can boost overall economic activity and stimulate economic growth, creating more jobs. All of these factors vastly complicate the two-dimensional diagram taught in Economics 101 and help explain why a higher minimum wage does not necessarily throw people out of work. The supply-and-demand diagram is a good conceptual starting point for thinking about the minimum wage. But on its own, it has limited predictive value in the much more complex real world."
"Even if a higher minimum wage does cause some people to lose their jobs, that cost has to be balanced against the benefit of greater earnings for other low-income workers. A study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that a $10.10 minimum would reduce employment by 500,000 jobs but would increase incomes for most poor families, moving 900,000 people above the poverty line. Similarly, a recent paper by the economist Arindrajit Dube finds that a 10 percent raise in the minimum wage should reduce the number of families living in poverty by around 2 percent to 3 percent. The economists polled in the 2013 Chicago Booth study thought that increasing the minimum wage would be a good idea because its potential impact on employment would be outweighed by the benefits to people who were still able to find jobs. Raising the minimum wage would also reduce inequality by narrowing the pay gap between low-income and higher-income workers."
"The restaurant industry has been a major force behind the advertising and public relations campaigns opposing the minimum wage, including many of the op-ed articles repeating the basic lesson of supply and demand. For example, Andy Puzder, the CEO of a restaurant company (and President-elect Trump’s nominee to lead the Labor Department), explained in The Wall Street Journal, “Every retailer has locations that are profitable, but only marginally. Increased labor costs can push these stores over the line and into the loss column. When that happens, companies that want to stay competitive will close them.” As a result, “broad increases in the minimum wage destroy jobs and hurt the working-class Americans that they are supposed to help.” A recent study by researchers at the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, however, found that higher minimum wages have not affected either the number of restaurants or the number of people that they employ, contrary to the industry’s dire predictions, while they have modestly increased workers’ pay. Because restaurant closings do not seem to increase, the implication is that paying employees more cuts into excess profits—profits beyond those necessary to stay in business. Or, as the financial commentator Barry Ritholtz put it, “raising the minimum wage works as a wealth transfer, from shareholders and franchisees, to minimum wage workers.” But instead of greedily demanding higher profits, industry executives can invoke Economics 101, which provides a simple explanation of the world that serves their interests."
The Atlantic
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:22 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Raise min wage, watch automation make those jobs obsolete,
Ok, Marco Rubio. That is so daft and baseless. First off, automation is going to put workers out of business moving forward...period. honestly, we should be excited about it because it means that human beings will have to work less and less throughout the course of our lives and be free more to explore and learn. Trying to fight automation by keeping workers wages low is ridiculous. I truly hope you can see that.
Will probably end up having to be a more Collective Society once everybody's put out of work by the automation that is surely coming. But i digress.
quote:
start complaining about greed and "the 1%" for putting people out of work
I know I complain about them putting out misinformation intentionally to dupe people like you.
This post was edited on 2/19/18 at 12:24 am
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:32 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
oh of course. Because you don't trust the sites, the sourced info is worthless. Nice.
No. It's outright and extreme bias is what makes it a worthless source. Dumbfrick.oh and from your own link
quote:
The first study, by a team of researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, supports the conclusion of numerous studies before it, that increasing the minimum wage up to a level that is about half or less of an area’s typical wage leads to at most a small reduction in employment.
And that's From the ultra left wing Berkeley
quote:
In the above examples, a higher minimum wage will raise labor costs. But many companies can recoup cost increases in the form of higher prices;
which disproportionatly affects those who make min wage. Thanks for proving my point.
quote:
companies that pay more often benefit from higher employee productivity
Not when it's minimum wage! They're still bottom rung. Why try?
quote:
They motivate people to work harder, they attract higher-skilled workers, and they reduce employee turnover, lowering hiring and training costs, among other things.
Not when it's minimum wage work. Jesus fricking tap dancing Christ.
I'm not going to nitpick the rest of your bullshite because there is no need. You just can't grasp simple economic principles. It's okay.
This post was edited on 2/19/18 at 12:34 am
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:43 am to beerJeep
quote:
No. It's outright and extreme bias is what makes it a worthless source. Dumbfrick.oh and from your own link
quote:
Right because your projections arent due to you protecting your fast food franchise. Disingenuous frick. Arguments occur from both sides dude. It's not groundbreaking. Trying to pretend that youre objective while having 10 minimum wage employees makes you have no credibility? Because that is the equivalent of your questionable logic.
quote:
increases in the form of higher prices;
which disproportionatly affects those who make min wage. Thanks for proving my point.
Lol. You fricking weasel. Yes because make 150 more a week and paying 35 cents more for a cheeseburger is going to frick them all. What a lying piece of shite you are.
quote:
companies that pay more often benefit from higher employee productivity
Not when it's minimum wage! They're still bottom rung. Why try?
Are we shifting towards opinion now? You're starting to get off track there buddy.
quote:
They motivate people to work harder, they attract higher-skilled workers, and they reduce employee turnover, lowering hiring and training costs, among other things.
Not when it's minimum wage work. Jesus fricking tap dancing Christ.
But in this very post that you responded to, we see that some employees would lose their job while many more would rise above the poverty threshold.
Now stop your dumbass brain for one second think about this: those lowest rung employees would be the ones that would probably lose their job yes? So if you've already commented on that and already agreed on that that you would know they weren't the ones that were doing better because they were paid more. Right up your arse.
quote:
I'm not going to nitpick the rest of your bullshite because there is no need. You just can't grasp simple economic principles. It's okay.
The problem is that you were trying to use Simple economic principles on something you don't understand which has been proven to be a much bigger issue by every leading economist.
You talk real big but you don't actually really know what you're talking about
This post was edited on 2/19/18 at 12:48 am
Posted on 2/19/18 at 12:53 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
Right because your projections arent due to you protecting your fast food franchise.
I don't own a fast food franchise you stupid frick
quote:
Trying to pretend that youre objective while having 10 minimum wage employees makes you have no credibility? Because that is the equivalent of your questionable logic.
That's called an EXAMPLE. You stupid shite for brains retard.
quote:
Lol. You fricking weasel. Yes because make 150 more a week and paying 35 cents more for a cheeseburger is going to frick them all. What a lying piece of shite you are
So cheeseburgers are the only thing that's going to increase in price? quote:
Are we shifting towards opinion now? You're starting to get off track there buddy.
Nope. Simple fact. I know. It's hard to comprehend.
quote:
But in this very post that you responded to, we see that some employees would lose their job while many more would rise above the poverty threshold.
Would they? No. But they will lose jobs. And hours. And purchasing power.
quote:
Now stop your dumbass brain for one second think about this: those lowest rung employees would be the ones that would probably lose their job yes? So if you've already commented on that and already agreed on that that you would know they weren't the ones that were doing better because they were paid more. Right up your arse.
Your poor pea brain thinks you got a gotcha. How cute.
quote:
The problem is that you were trying to use Simple economic principles on something you don't understand which has been proven to be a much bigger issue by every leading economist.
The problem is... You still can't grasp even the simplest of economic principles. Yet here you are. Still spewing your ignorant arse thoughts.
quote:
You talk real big but you don't actually really know what you're talking about
I know a metric frick ton more than you do apparently.
Throw. In. The. God. Damn. Towel.
YOU. LOST.
Posted on 2/19/18 at 1:11 am to beerJeep
quote:
I don't own a fast food franchise you stupid frick
Sorry. Gas station.
quote:
cheeseburgers are the only thing that's going to increase in price?
Obviously not but getting paid a substantial amount more does not increase overall prices as it's been proven in many economic models that it can be absorbed in small increases for products.
I'm sorry you can't understand the basic economic model that getting paid more creates more money in the economy for spending power.
quote:
Nope. Simple fact. I know. It's hard to comprehend.
quote:
No it really isn't. The obvious thing here is you don't have any numbers to back up your point and you're just talking out of your arse and when you start slipping backwards you just throw out an opinion. That was your back hitting the mat.
quote:
Would they? No. But they will lose jobs. And hours. And purchasing power.
Is this the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nah nah nah nah?
I've already shown you plenty on how many of the projected Workforce would rise above the poverty threshold but you're choosing to ignore it because it doesn't aid credibly one-sided point of view.
quote:
Your poor pea brain thinks you got a gotcha. How cute
your ego wont allow you to admit it, like always.
You talked about how people would lose their jobs at the bottom rung then went on to explain that the people who would keep their jobs and rise above the poverty threshold would not be more productive because they are the bottom rung.
You see how you're starting to unravel at the seams there pal? You're now relying on vague, general opinions in order to prove your point. Im smelling weakness.
quote:
The problem is... You still can't grasp even the simplest of economic principles. Yet here you are. Still spewing your ignorant arse thoughts.
Maybe you're right. I'll go back and read about how last time minimum wage increased it would crash the economy. Maybe how it will this time. Maybe I can go back each time and find the the Doomsday Sayer like you and find nothing really happened except for workers getting a higher floor that was in line with the GDP.
quote:
know a metric frick ton more than you do apparently.
Throw. In. The. God. Damn. Towel.
YOU. LOST.
I know that you just exposed yourself without any real economic information to back yourself up while claiming yourself King of the economic Mountain. This is how it usually goes though. I kick your arse up and down the floor after breadcrumbing you for a while and you beat your chest and wallow in ignorance. The pretty sad routine actually.
I would love to find your business and pass along to all of your employees that you think they're bottom of the rung and don't deserve more money. It would be funny to watch you trying to weasel out of that one.
Posted on 2/19/18 at 1:12 am to Ebbandflow
quote:
know I complain about them putting out misinformation intentionally to dupe people like you.
What misinformation have I given you?
Min wage jobs are rare, usually held by young people without families, and when the wage gets high enough automation will make them obsolete.
What in the hell are you disputing?
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