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re: Gianforte (R) doesn't believe in retirement 'cuz Moses built Ark at 600 y/o

Posted on 5/26/17 at 12:54 pm to
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
15180 posts
Posted on 5/26/17 at 12:54 pm to
I'd love to.

quote:

No freedom of speech or religion in your utopia! Scary! You appear to want to violate the prohibition of religious test and establishment clauses! Can't hold office if you believe and espouse a religious belief!? Wow! Only atheists need apply?


So here you focus on the establishment clause which prohibits the establishment of religion by Congress. If you ask me, a congressman claiming retirement is bad because a person from his religious teachings didn't retire is establishment of a religion. He is saying, "well hey, this Christian guy did it, so we can all do it." So I'm not sure why you used establishment clause, but it actually helps prove my point.

quote:

Fortunately, we all have the God given and Constitutional right to believe any religious beliefs and proclaim them. All, Catholic and Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Eastern beliefs, Satanist, atheist, agnostics, etc. can run for and hold office!


This is true, and thank god it is. One of the reasons our country is so great. But our politicians don't need to cram their religion down the throats of citizens. It isn't right. Again, establishment clause.

quote:

Also fortunately, you have the right to be an anti religious bigot, and you can advocate and use any formula to vote for your political representatives. God and the Constitution give you the right to be as tolerant or intolerant as you please!


In no way has anything I've said been anti religious or bigoted. Please let me know if you think otherwise and I will gladly clarify.
Posted by Havoc
Member since Nov 2015
39270 posts
Posted on 5/26/17 at 1:14 pm to
Progtard
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
14404 posts
Posted on 5/26/17 at 2:27 pm to
Valid points.
I sense as much agreement between us as disagreement.

There's a big difference between shouldn't and can't. For example: I often hear people use the f-word in public and even in the presence of children. I don't think they SHOULD do that, but I don't want a law that fences in the right of free speech to pass a law that makes it illegal so that they CAN'T legally do it.

Should and shouldn't is an individual thing. When one agrees with something, one usually advocates it and declares that others should also do it. Conversely, one says that others shouldn't do things they disagree with.

Can't is a legal status imposed upon all.

So if you say Gianforte shouldn't govern based upon his religious beliefs, I'm with you. But, if you say Gianforte can't govern based upon his religious beliefs, that violates the establishment clause and I'm not with you.

I don't think Sanders should govern based upon his social and economic beliefs, but he absolutely can and should be able to!
quote:

But our politicians don't need to cram their religion down the throats of citizens.

I agree that they don't need to and SHOULDN'T. I agree that it isn't right. But they can and should be able to. Example: I'm a small government guy. Obama is a big government guy who advocates social salvation in his religious view. Obamacare embraces both of these! I don't think it's right, he shouldn't have made it law, but he legally could and should have been able to.

In this particular case where Gianforte speaks against retirement, there could be many reasons including religious. Maybe he's a secret communist who believes that retirement is bypassing economic and social requirements of the "from each" portion of the manifesto. Maybe he's a workaholic looking for God's approval. Maybe he thinks that we are reducing the value and contributions of the individual retirees. Or, maybe he read a Bible passage and interpreted it as retirement = evil.

As an individual in or out of office, he has the right to think and promote any belief religious or otherwise. He has the right to propose and vote for passage of anti retirement legislation for any reason including religious.
quote:

In no way has anything I've said been anti religious or bigoted. Please let me know if you think otherwise and I will gladly clarify.

Public proclamation and individual evangelical attempts are key components of many religions. Prohibition of this would be an anti religious action and a reflection of bias. I don't like Marmons and Jahovah Witnesses knocking on my door, but they should have that right. I do not like when other Christians try to evangelize me out of my Christian beliefs! I tolerate them, but strongly defend their right to do so.

You claim to be Christian, and I have no reason to doubt you! But in this thread and others you appear to have a propensity to attack some Christian sects. In particular you seem to target the Evangelicals the most. Now I'm not evangelical, but I believe they deserve more tolerance since they are moral people.

This is not an attack, but a request for clarification. Religion is a delicate subject and I hope no insult was taken, because none were intended.
Posted by Pax Regis
Alabama
Member since Sep 2007
15277 posts
Posted on 5/26/17 at 2:40 pm to
I actually kinda agree with him. Not sure why this is shocking.
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