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re: Exactly how did Zelensky start his war with Russia?

Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:44 am to
Posted by Sweep Da Leg
Member since Sep 2013
2243 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:44 am to
quote:

SlowFlowPro


Ahhhh the king of being intellectually dishonest or obtuse. Let the adults talk without your endless lies
Posted by Sweep Da Leg
Member since Sep 2013
2243 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:45 am to
They also outlawed speaking Russian and banned their church when the region was 80% Russian.
Posted by LSUGrrrl
Frisco, TX
Member since Jul 2007
45186 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:49 am to
quote:

When did this promise happen? Russia has had NATO countries at its borders.


quote:

U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University


They were promised many times.
LINK
Posted by idlewatcher
Planet Arium
Member since Jan 2012
92977 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:53 am to
quote:

They were promised many times.



And since '90 and '91, two Russian adjacent countries have joined and a third was requesting membership.

But nahhh, they weren't encroaching on Russia at all.
Posted by LSUGrrrl
Frisco, TX
Member since Jul 2007
45186 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:56 am to
quote:

And since '90 and '91, two Russian adjacent countries have joined and a third was requesting membership.

But nahhh, they weren't encroaching on Russia at all.


Exactly. Do people just not know history?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 9:57 am to
quote:

Zelenskyy is the western puppet and has always been.

According to your theory, Poroshenko is the puppet.

Zelensky ousted him in 2019, 5 years after the purported coup
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:01 am to
quote:

Wrong....Austerity and Privatization of Land was not popular with the Ukrainian population


You post a link that doesn't even make your point. On brand.

Actual data

Before 2014: Ukrainians in favour of the EU but against NATO

quote:

Even before the 2013–2014 EuroMaidan pro-EU protests that precipitated Russia’s first invasion of Ukraine, majority of Ukrainians believed that the future of their country should be within the EU.[2] According to a 2012 poll, 46 per cent of Ukrainians supported the view that Ukraine should become an EU member while 33 per cent rejected the idea. It is noteworthy that even in the Donbas region and Crimea, people aged 18–29 did not differ from their peers who lived in other parts of the country. Data showed that 51 per cent of the youth in the eastern part of the country were in favour of Ukraine’s membership in the EU, while only 22 per cent were against. Besides, the attitude toward EU membership depended on the level of people’s awareness. The poll showed that 52 per cent of Ukrainians who were well-informed about the talks between Ukraine and EU on the Association Agreement were in favour of membership.

Pro-European views increased after EuroMaidan and the first Russian invasion. The number of supporters of EU integration increased from 47 per cent in December 2013 to 57 per cent in December 2014, while the share of proponents of integration into the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan dropped from 26 per cent to 16 per cent in the same period.[3] These sentiments remained unchanged despite the total overhaul of the government (president and parliament) in 2019. After one year of presidency of Volodymyr Zelenskyy, 48 per cent of Ukrainians believed that integration with the EU was the best policy option for Ukraine, while support for the Customs Union with Russia fell to 11 per cent.[4]

Attitudes toward membership in NATO followed a different pattern. Until 2014 NATO was not popular in Ukraine. Just before the Bucharest NATO summit, when the Alliance first made a promise of membership to Ukraine, an April 2008 poll of the Democratic Initiatives Foundation (DIF) showed that only 22 per cent of Ukrainians supported it. NATO supporters were in the minority even in the traditionally nationalist western Ukraine and Kyiv.[5] Moreover, mainstream political process and media influenced and shaped attitudes toward NATO. Two years of presidency of Viktor Yanukovych, who used pro-Russian rhetoric, flirted with pro-Russian media and constituents, resulted in a decline of support for Ukraine’s integration into NATO. In April 2012 the number of NATO proponents fell to just 13 per cent. Support for the NATO integration decreased across the country: 38 per cent in Western Ukraine, 14 per cent in Central Ukraine, 6 per cent in the south and 1 per cent in the east.


Parliament passes statement on Ukraine’s aspirations for European integration

quote:

A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday.

The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada “within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled.”


quote:

February 22, 2013


That's a 90.3% vote in support.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:04 am to
quote:

And since '90 and '91, two Russian adjacent countries have joined and a third was requesting membership.

But nahhh, they weren't encroaching on Russia at all.


A. There was no agreement, and specifically, none with Russia. Even the words cited were given to a leader of a state that doesn't exist now (the USSR).

B. If your theory was correct, where was the aggression in those "two Russian adjacent countries"? If this was an honest belief of Russia, why did they only start this talking point in 2022?

C. And what does this have to do with the EU, which is what started this conflict in 2013?
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 10:06 am
Posted by Bunk Moreland
Member since Dec 2010
66986 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:08 am to
Imagine the Russian or Chinese equivalent of Nuland and Pyatt in the middle of a coup in Mexico. I wonder how the U.S. would react.
Posted by Hawgleg
Member since Jan 2022
525 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:11 am to
quote:
And since '90 and '91, two Russian adjacent countries have joined and a third was requesting membership.

But nahhh, they weren't encroaching on Russia at all.


Exactly. Do people just not know history?


They dont unless CNN tells them. At the end of the cold war Russia had one request. No Nato in Ukraine. It was all good until the War Mongers had to fire back up ag ain and the easiest way to WAR was placing NATO in Ukraine. And here we are.
Posted by LSUGrrrl
Frisco, TX
Member since Jul 2007
45186 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:13 am to
quote:

They dont unless CNN tells them. At the end of the cold war Russia had one request. No Nato in Ukraine. It was all good until the War Mongers had to fire back up ag ain and the easiest way to WAR was placing NATO in Ukraine. And here we are.


I’m just waiting to see if the person who asked me the question even bothers to respond after being provided the facts.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:14 am to
quote:

At the end of the cold war Russia had one request.

Again, USSR, not Russia.

quote:

It was all good until the War Mongers had to fire back up ag ain and the easiest way to WAR was placing NATO in Ukraine.


What does this have to do with the EU?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:15 am to
quote:

I’m just waiting to see if the person who asked me the question even bothers to respond after being provided the facts.


What formal agreement of NATO was ever finalized with the current state of Russia (not the USSR)?
Posted by aero1126
Member since Oct 2016
1159 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:15 am to
quote:

I missed that little bit of news three years ago. Expecting your usual astute responses.


Obviously because he wouldn’t just give away his territory when Putin asked nicely, you dumb lib.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
133724 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:18 am to
quote:

At the end of the cold war Russia had one request. No Nato in Ukraine.
This is a total fabrication and distortion of history.

I was working in Moscow, Russia at the end of the cold war for several years. I know what was going on there during that period.
Posted by LSUGrrrl
Frisco, TX
Member since Jul 2007
45186 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:18 am to
quote:

What formal agreement of NATO was ever finalized with the current state of Russia (not the USSR)?


I never said formal agreement, did I? I did, however, provide a link to the National Security Archives detailing the promises made by multiple US and European leaders.

I’m not interested in playing the semantics debate with you this morning. My $100 king cake was just delivered and I’m waiting for the icing to defrost so I can have breakfast. Let’s not pretend that Russia didn’t take all those documented promises into consideration.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467780 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:20 am to
quote:

I never said formal agreement, did I? I

I'm asking you for that document/fact.

I don't believe it exists and you're confirming that with the above.

quote:

Let’s not pretend that Russia didn’t take all those documented promises into consideration.

Again, why did they wait for Ukraine joining a completely different organization to start this conflict in 2013?

The EU is not NATO and offers none of the stated existential threats to Russia. The EU is what caused this conflict to begin in 2013.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
36080 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:22 am to
You forgot Trump wine as well
Posted by SDVTiger
Cabo San Lucas
Member since Nov 2011
94242 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:24 am to
quote:

I was working in Moscow, Russia at the end of the cold war for several years. I know what was going on there during that period.




Ukraine wanting to join Nato started it

Also Ukraine has been Russia since the beginning of time so they are taking back whats theirs
Posted by jp4lsu
Member since Sep 2016
6359 posts
Posted on 2/19/25 at 10:25 am to
This sh!tshow started back in 2014 when the Obama Admin created a coup to throw out the pro-Russian corrupt president. So the US could put in a pro-American president that was also corrupt.
Then when the US sends messages of Ukraine possibly joining NATO, this is what you get. Not to mention the pro-Russian area of Ukraine and Ukraine forces have been fighting for a long time.
So Russia saw the pro-Russian areas in a fight for years, saw the US create a coup so a pro US and pro NATO president could be put in, and then the talk of Ukraine joining NATO was a reason for them to do this.
Ukraine/NATO/US/EU are not innocent in this. Also 2 months after this started, Ukraine and Russia and agreed to a settlement to end the war and the West comes right in and says absolutely not. Why would the West do that and cost so many more lives in the process.
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