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re: Does IVF create abortions?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:51 pm to Foch
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:51 pm to Foch
I'm open to all sorts of ideas on the subject, but what I've mostly observed anecdotally is people getting married at 33-37 or so and then trying to have their first kid at 35+. A lot of them have money at that point, have done couple/married life extensively, and are terrified of just waiting it out and hoping for the best.
So they have the resources to go down these roads much earlier than say, a 25 year old couple who tries for 5 years.
So they have the resources to go down these roads much earlier than say, a 25 year old couple who tries for 5 years.
2
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:53 pm to jp4lsu
quote:
Let me say, that I will not judge anybody's decision.
I will.
You will too. You will judge that no one has the right to make the decision to kill your wife or rape one of your daughters, for example. This is no different in that context.
quote:
I just didn't feel right with embryos being destroyed or just left in the freezer till whenever.
That's because you have a working conscience and are not so selfish that you don't care what happens as long as you get what you want. I can understand someone such as yourself thinking that other people can be trusted to do the right thing and "make their own decision," but they can't.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:54 pm to Mariner
quote:
If you are against people who have abortions, should you also be against someone who is trying to create life to love and nurture?
I wish the pro-IVF crowd who adopts this line of reasoning would dig a little deeper into the reasoning used by those who question it.
I believe the serious desire to be a parent and to bring new life into the world is extremely natural and worthy of absolute celebration.
I do not think that the sole focus on an end "good" (having children) removes any of the "means" from criticism. We know too much now about threats to embryos during their manufacture and during implementation. We also know so little about threats to embryos from storage and handling during the IVF process.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:55 pm to swamptiger99
quote:The discarded embryos are not “trying to start a life”. The discarded embryos are 100% an abortion. I don’t think those who go through IVF are bad people. I think they’re ignorant like women who have an abortion. But Christians should absolutely not be supporting IVF unless all embryos are used (which is almost never the case).
Abortion is a clear intent to end a life. Where as IVF is trying to start a life.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:57 pm to the808bass
quote:
What test would you run on the embryo to determine that?
It's called PGT testing and can detect if an embryo is genetically normal as well as it's gender.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:57 pm to burger bearcat
I've been through 2 years of IVF procedures. With the guidance of my doctor, and contrary to how many fertility specialists work, she would only fertilize the number of eggs I was willing to have implanted. In my case I was willing and financially able to care for a twin pregnancy, so TWO eggs were fertilized and implanted in each cycle. I have no left over embryos.
IVF did not ultimately work for me. But I desperately wanted to bring each embryo to life. There are some fertility specialists who have the moral conversations with their clients before accepting them.
side note: had two kids the natural way after my IVF attempts. God has his own plans.
IVF did not ultimately work for me. But I desperately wanted to bring each embryo to life. There are some fertility specialists who have the moral conversations with their clients before accepting them.
side note: had two kids the natural way after my IVF attempts. God has his own plans.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 1:59 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
I'm open to all sorts of ideas on the subject, but what I've mostly observed anecdotally is people getting married at 33-37 or so and then trying to have their first kid at 35+.
Our societal bias for "kids...but on my terms" is surely a part of this. Still, we have completely rejected the idea that we should live in harmony with our genetics and bodies instead of going out of our way to medicate ourselves away from what we are "ordered" to do (specifically talking about how criticism of birth control pills is anathema and it is a medication which chiefly serves to counter a natural and necessary process).
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:00 pm to Foch
To be honest, I don't have an answer.
I think those in this situation will have to answer in the end at the gates of heaven about their decision to do this or that.
I understand that this is not a black/white issue. I truly believe that the intent behind IVF is for good and is no different than a couple that has been trying for years. Sure, I wouldn't go with route with my spouse, we would adopt over IVF if it came to that point, but it's not to say that IVF is going anywhere.
I think those in modern medicine, who try to play God, and create designer babies, or desirable traits, are no different than those who practice witchcraft. What is the intent behind it all? Only our Creator knows the intent in our hearts and it will have to be explained in the end.
I think those in this situation will have to answer in the end at the gates of heaven about their decision to do this or that.
I understand that this is not a black/white issue. I truly believe that the intent behind IVF is for good and is no different than a couple that has been trying for years. Sure, I wouldn't go with route with my spouse, we would adopt over IVF if it came to that point, but it's not to say that IVF is going anywhere.
I think those in modern medicine, who try to play God, and create designer babies, or desirable traits, are no different than those who practice witchcraft. What is the intent behind it all? Only our Creator knows the intent in our hearts and it will have to be explained in the end.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:01 pm to burger bearcat
Yes
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:02 pm to burger bearcat
i've never looked into the process of IVF, but why are multiple embryos being created at a time? from a quick google it seems like its a money saving effort, but if we are creating legislation to make it cheaper then shouldn't the standard be that only one embryo be created at a time so as to not "abort" the unused embryo?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:03 pm to Foch
Agree with all that. What I'm probably talking about (the age issue) is really the end result of many other things, some of which you've spoken to.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:03 pm to StrongOffer
You cannot back up your argument from any teachings or verses in the New Testament. It’s nothing more than emotions and feelings. I look forward to your non existent Biblical reply and don’t give some goofy, woefully taken out of context, vague Law of Moses reference that literally has no relevance since the Cross.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:06 pm to StrongOffer
Do you consider miscarriages abortions?
I understand where you are coming from, but it takes a literal miracle to get where you are. There are a lot of moving pieces and this is an option that is available to couples that are looking to start a family. The intent behind IVF should be for good and in the end, no matter what happens, we'll have to answer for these decisions.
Are there nefarious evil people that try to play God and create desirable traits/designer babies? Yeah, that's not right.
I understand where you are coming from, but it takes a literal miracle to get where you are. There are a lot of moving pieces and this is an option that is available to couples that are looking to start a family. The intent behind IVF should be for good and in the end, no matter what happens, we'll have to answer for these decisions.
Are there nefarious evil people that try to play God and create desirable traits/designer babies? Yeah, that's not right.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:07 pm to Pezzo
quote:
i've never looked into the process of IVF, but why are multiple embryos being created at a time?
Each round can cost upwards of 30-$50k. It is VERY taxing physically on the woman to be pumped full of fertility hormones. Its a mental mind frick. Daily visits to the doctors office are required to measure follicle (egg) size as they develop. The chances of ONE embryo taking is less than 50/50. So you are just gaming your odds of a successful pregnancy.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:08 pm to swamptiger99
quote:
I truly believe that the intent behind IVF is for good and is no different than a couple that has been trying for years.
I appreciate your open mindedness in your response.
I would still challenge you that the intent and goal of an action do not alleviate us of accountability for the means we take towards that endstate.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:08 pm to swamptiger99
Even if you see few ethical issues inherent in IVF as it is probably most often used (by well-intentioned, struggling couples)
I would think the average person would still look at the disproportionate use of IVF/surrogacy among the wealthy/celebrities and see that we're not far off from some scary concepts becoming reality.
I would think the average person would still look at the disproportionate use of IVF/surrogacy among the wealthy/celebrities and see that we're not far off from some scary concepts becoming reality.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:11 pm to swamptiger99
quote:
Do you consider miscarriages abortions?
If the "miscarriage" took place due to a positive action by another individual that was aimed at ending the pregnancy before natural birth then it isn't a miscarriage.
You need to consider intent of the action and its relation to an outcome.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:11 pm to StrongOffer
My wife and I tried to have a kid for 17 years before we exhausted all fertility options and went through IVF. 6 rounds to be exact. Insurance covers very little. We probably paid out of pocket close to $250k. It was a brutal process. 5 rounds where nothing even made it far enough along to implant. I think it was 55 eggs in total and none even made it far enough to genetic test. We switched on round 6 to a Dr in Scottsdale,AZ. 1 made it far enough to test. On an A-F grading scale, it was a C- The Dr said he wouldn’t recommend implanting it due to the low probability of survival, but if we wanted to move forward we could.
We now have a happy, healthy 19 month old baby girl who has redefined my concept of love and grace and humility. Is IVF a sin? I’m not sure. I do know that the amount of love this little girl has created and the understanding I now have of unconditional love has completely transformed my walk with the Lord.
We now have a happy, healthy 19 month old baby girl who has redefined my concept of love and grace and humility. Is IVF a sin? I’m not sure. I do know that the amount of love this little girl has created and the understanding I now have of unconditional love has completely transformed my walk with the Lord.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:11 pm to Rip Torn
quote:
You cannot back up your argument from any teachings or verses in the New Testament. It’s nothing more than emotions and feelings. I look forward to your non existent Biblical reply and don’t give some goofy, woefully taken out of context, vague Law of Moses reference that literally has no relevance since the Cross.
Are the 10 Commandments not valid? The 1st being you shall have no false gods? Playing God and attempting to end run around the natural process is just that.
Morality does not need to be spelled out word for word in Scrupture. IVF was obviously not a concept when the Gospels were written. Ethics and morality are universal, and predate Christ, as well as Moses and Abraham.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 2:14 pm to burger bearcat
Open heart surgery and organ transplants were obviously not a concept when the Gospels were written either. Do you consider either one of those "Playing God"?
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 2:15 pm
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