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Covid: outside the box thinking - hemoglobin/ Vit D/ “host-centric” (and why that matters)

Posted on 4/7/20 at 7:51 am
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 7:51 am
This speculation may account for:

- why chloroquine works (general mechanism of action is poorly understood, but works on RBCs in malaria use)
- why observations of certain populations/regions being less/more impacted

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173/4

quote:

COVID-19: Attacks the 1-Beta Chain of Hemoglobin and Captures the Porphyrin to Inhibit Human Heme Metabolism
2020-03-23T12:15:34Z (GMT) by liu wenzhong Li hualan


quote:

The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking were used to compare the biological roles of certain proteins of the novel coronavirus. The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could bind to the porphyrin, respectively. At the same time, orf1ab, ORF10, and ORF3a proteins could coordinate attack the heme on the 1-beta chain of hemoglobin to dissociate the iron to form the porphyrin. The attack will cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images. The mechanism also interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress. Favipiravir could inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins. Because the novel coronavirus is dependent on porphyrins, it may originate from an ancient virus. Therefore, this research is of high value to contemporary biological experiments, disease prevention, and clinical treatment.


https://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

quote:

Covid-19 had us all fooled, but now we might have finally found its secret.


quote:

The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. People are simply desaturating (losing o2 in their blood), and that’s what eventually leads to organ failures that kill them, not any form of ARDS or pneumonia. All the damage to the lungs you see in CT scans are from the release of oxidative iron from the hemes, this overwhelms the natural defenses against pulmonary oxidative stress and causes that nice, always-bilateral ground glass opacity in the lungs. Patients returning for re-hospitalization days or weeks after recovery suffering from apparent delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy strengthen the notion COVID-19 patients are suffering from hypoxia despite no signs of respiratory ‘tire out’ or fatigue.


quote:

1) Without the iron ion, hemoglobin can no longer bind to oxygen. Once all the hemoglobin is impaired, the red blood cell is essentially turned into a Freightliner truck cab with no trailer and no ability to store its cargo.. it is useless and just running around with COVID-19 virus attached to its porphyrin. All these useless trucks running around not delivering oxygen is what starts to lead to desaturation, or watching the patient’s spo2 levels drop. It is INCORRECT to assume traditional ARDS and in doing so, you’re treating the WRONG DISEASE. Think of it a lot like carbon monoxide poisoning, in which CO is bound to the hemoglobin, making it unable to carry oxygen. In those cases, ventilators aren’t treating the root cause; the patient’s lungs aren’t ‘tiring out’, they’re pumping just fine. The red blood cells just can’t carry o2, end of story. Only in this case, unlike CO poisoning in which eventually the CO can break off, the affected hemoglobin is permanently stripped of its ability to carry o2 because it has lost its iron ion. The body compensates for this lack of o2 carrying capacity and deliveries by having your kidneys release hormones like erythropoietin, which tell your bone marrow factories to ramp up production on new red blood cells with freshly made and fully functioning hemoglobin. This is the reason you find elevated hemoglobin and decreased blood oxygen saturation as one of the 3 primary indicators of whether the shite is about to hit the fan for a particular patient or not.

2) That little iron ion, along with millions of its friends released from other hemes, are now floating through your blood freely. As I mentioned before, this type of iron ion is highly reactive and causes oxidative damage. It turns out that this happens to a limited extent naturally in our bodies and we have cleanup & defense mechanisms to keep the balance. The lungs, in particular, have 3 primary defenses to maintain “iron homeostasis”, 2 of which are in the alveoli, those little sacs in your lungs we talked about earlier. The first of the two are little macrophages that roam around and scavenge up any free radicals like this oxidative iron. The second is a lining on the walls (called the epithelial surface) which has a thin layer of fluid packed with high levels of antioxidant molecules.. things like abscorbic acid (AKA Vitamin C) among others. Well, this is usually good enough for naturally occurring rogue iron ions but with COVID-19 running rampant your body is now basically like a progressive state letting out all the prisoners out of the prisons… it’s just too much iron and it begins to overwhelm your lungs’ countermeasures, and thus begins the process of pulmonary oxidative stress. This leads to damage and inflammation, which leads to all that nasty stuff and damage you see in CT scans of COVID-19 patient lungs. Ever noticed how it’s always bilateral? (both lungs at the same time) Pneumonia rarely ever does that, but COVID-19 does… EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.


May need less ventilators and more blood...
This post was edited on 4/25/20 at 9:49 am
Posted by Hoops
LA
Member since Jan 2013
6515 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 7:56 am to
Doesn’t carbon monoxide poisoning also bind and prevents oxygen from being properly transported?
Posted by JawjaTigah
Bizarro World
Member since Sep 2003
22495 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 7:59 am to
If the science of this is real, Covid is one nasty, nasty virus. But if this is its dirty little secret, we might be getting closer to a real weapon that could put it down once and for all.

ETA: is anybody really working on this? I’m hoping Libertymavenstock (source) is not just creating a blind alley for us non science yokels to think is red meat.
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:07 am
Posted by Boston911
Lafayette
Member since Dec 2013
1933 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:06 am to
LSU SHV has been using a device called HemoLung that removes CO2 dissolved in the blood and returns it to the body, On one patient they reduced serum CO2 blood levels by 50%
Posted by MississippiTigerGirl
Brookhaven, MS
Member since Sep 2007
272 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:07 am to
Just saw a report on OAN. The French are conducting a study using hemoglobins from sea worms. Their hemoglobin load can hold more than 40X oxygen than that of humans. They think that they will be able to decrease the use of vents in the end stage treatment of covid or even prevent the progression of the disease to end stage by incorporating this treatment.

Sea worms. I shite you not.

ETA: This is about a week old. But pretty interesting. They’re a whole lot further along than I was given to believe.

LINK
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:26 am
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98467 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:09 am to
Wasn't this was that NY ER doc was talking about (someone posted that the other day)?

If this is the case, it would require a radically different treatment.
Posted by Diamondawg
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2006
32203 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:11 am to
quote:

Doesn’t carbon monoxide poisoning also bind and prevents oxygen from being properly transported?
Yes. Carbon monoxide has 240 times the affinity and will attach to hemoglobin leaving no room for oxygen.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
23650 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:17 am to
So the scientific paper is from China, but the “I’m not a doctor” article concludes with “Don’t trust China.” Which is it?

We want all aspects of the disease and all potential treatments tried and the results shared. Each insight advances the medicine. But some of y’all act as if Trump is in a lab studying this stuff and that he is the only expert. Let the docs and researchers figure it out. I have faith that they will get it done.
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:18 am
Posted by Diamondawg
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2006
32203 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:25 am to
Where was Trump mentioned in the thread?
Posted by roadGator
Member since Feb 2009
139779 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:26 am to
You have zero self awareness
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:26 am to
I did concede it was speculative (educated speculation)

Outsiders in general tend to be more disruptive (in a positive manner) in systems entrenched in dogma and group think...

This is how real progress is made

Innovators innovate, science validates
Posted by Tiguar
Montana
Member since Mar 2012
33131 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:30 am to
I’ve had a very strong suspicion for awhile now that anemic patients do very poorly with this. I thought it was primarily due to the severe pneumonia impairing oxygen delivery but this makes sense
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:33 am
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:31 am to
quote:

This is how real progress is made

Innovators innovate, science validates


You are an innovator by virtue of posting articles?
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:36 am to
quote:

I’ve had a very strong suspicion for awhile now that anemic patients do very poorly with this. I thought it was primarily due to the severe pneumonia impairing oxygen delivery but this makes sense



I know you are a pharmacist, so I have a question that wasn't answered when we did pharm. We learned about the retinal toxicity associated with chloroquine. The risk factors for that, such as advanced age and and obesity, coincide with the risk factors for Covid-19. Do you think there is some hesitance on using hydroxychloroquine based on how the risk factors for retinopathy are the same risk factors for this disease? I apologize if this is a really elementary question. Our pharm course was super quick and did surface level discussions of when to use the drugs.
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:37 am
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118665 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:37 am to
quote:

LSU SHV has been using a device called HemoLung that removes CO2 dissolved in the blood and returns it to the body, On one patient they reduced serum CO2 blood levels by 50%




This is what is needed to bring the success rate of ventilation much higher. The current problem with ventilation is the lack of CO2 transfer (respiration).
Posted by Tiguar
Montana
Member since Mar 2012
33131 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:41 am to
I don’t think that’s the reason, no. The retinopathy is usually seen after longer courses with accumulation of drug. The risk of retinopathy with a 5 day course is very low.

And don’t feel bad, I feel like we got very little pharm too

Probably 90% of what I know I learned in 4th year and residency
Posted by uway
Member since Sep 2004
33109 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:44 am to
That's the most unfair thing I've ever seen you post.

Im glad this was posted, even though I'm not treating anyone and can't do anything about it.

That video the other day in which the doctor said what he is seeing looks like altitude sickness instead of what he would expect from pneumonia had the ring of truth to it.
What he said about the current paradigm of using the ventilators for pressure rather than providing oxygen (going off memory, so correct me if I'm wrong) almost made it seem like what we are doing with the ventilators is actually causing mortality, to some extent. And that comports with reports that going on the ventilator is the equivalent of a death sentence.

If any of that is the case, it's good that articles like this are being written and shared.
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:48 am to
quote:

You are an innovator by virtue of posting articles?


It was a general statement

Personally, I am a non domain dependent thinker. I collate information so that others can “see”

My innovations are another story...
You will know me by my actions (although I prefer being behind the scenes)
Posted by BuckyCheese
Member since Jan 2015
48827 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:51 am to
There was a guy on Fox very early this morning that I recall mentioned altitude sickness. I didn't catch much of it but he seemed to be talking about seeing firsthand what is being talked about in this thread. They were treating the wrong thing is how I recall him putting it at one point.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
23650 posts
Posted on 4/7/20 at 8:51 am to
quote:

Where was Trump mentioned in the thread?


Trump, “fake news” and other Trump themes are featured in the “I’m not a doctor “ article, and fill the discussion here daily.

But I’m glad this was shared. All insights are needed.
This post was edited on 4/7/20 at 8:54 am
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