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re: Conservatives: what's your beef with libertarianism?
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:17 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
Please tell me what, exactly, conservatives have "won" in the last few decades? And I mean real world, tangible victories, not "won an election", etc. What issue in the pantheon of conservative thought has been advanced in any marked way? From where I'm sitting, it looks like a neverending string of losses.
yeah the shining beacon is Trump, an he's, almost, in no way a conservative. he's legit promoting non-conservative points as rallying points and that's a win
Yeah, let’s not consider the fact that victories for conservatives very often involve what DOESN’T happen, rather than what does, right?
3
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:19 am to troyt37
quote:
Please tell me what, exactly, conservatives have "won" in the last few decades?
Mexico paid for the wall. Straight cash.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:25 am to Houma Sapien
quote:
Mexico paid for the wall. Straight cash.
Perfect answer to the OP’s question. Real libertarians don’t sound like marxist democrats. Problem is there is damn few of them, and a whole lot of marxist democrats who pretend they’re libertarians.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 11:27 am
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:42 am to troyt37
quote:
Yeah, let’s not consider the fact that victories for conservatives very often involve what DOESN’T happen, rather than what does, right?
"we're turning into our alleged enemy, just not as fast as our alleged enemy wants!"
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:51 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
"we're turning into our alleged enemy, just not as fast as our alleged enemy wants!"
Another perfect answer. Like I said in my first post, libertarians have been making good the enemy of perfect since 1970. One wonders how much further along we would be toward limited government and liberty if libertarians spent as much time tearing down the party that promotes a strong central government, and diminished if not nonexistent personal freedoms. Somehow, many think letting themselves be used as a tool by marxist democrats to marginalize conservatives is a way to achieve those goals.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:51 am to MrCarton
quote:
Libertarianism DOES NOT EXIST on the simplistic Left/Right spectrum.
Wrong. It is explicitly right wing.
Not on the popularly accepted left-right paradigm.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:53 am to troyt37
quote:
Yeah, let’s not consider the fact that victories for conservatives very often involve what DOESN’T happen, rather than what does, right?
That line only works if the status quo is the conservative ideal. The reality is that conservatives claim to loathe the current paradigm, which makes sense, as they have been getting their asses handed to them for over half a century. As such, “wins” can only be claimed if you regain ground previously taken. If all you have to brag about is that you’re only losing ground at a rate of a mile a day instead of two miles, then you’re nothing more than a perpetual loser because your ideas/ideals have already been rejected.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:54 am to troyt37
quote:
troyt37
Libertarians really get you going.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:55 am to Joshjrn
quote:
If all you have to brag about is that you’re only losing ground at a rate of a mile a day instead of two miles, then you’re nothing more than a perpetual loser because your ideas/ideals have already been rejected.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:57 am to SlowFlowPro
I wouldn’t say Conservatives are void of any substantive victories lately. Both the tax cuts and significant reduction of commercial regulations in the last two years are two enormous positive developments.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:58 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Not on the popularly accepted left-right paradigm.
Yes, in the popularly accepted paradigm.
quote:
Right-wing politics hold that certain social ordersand hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition.[4]:p. 693, 721[5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequalitymay be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or the competition in market economies.[12][13] The term right-wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".[14]
Libertarianism, as described by its only canonical texts and greatest proponent is absolutely, without a doubt, right wing.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:58 am to troyt37
quote:
Another perfect answer. Like I said in my first post, libertarians have been making good the enemy of perfect since 1970.
bro, do you admit the GOP is losing, and has been losing since at least FDR?
it's not about being perfect; it's about you claims of winning or preventing these mythical things from happening by winning
quote:
One wonders how much further along we would be toward limited government and liberty if libertarians spent as much time tearing down the party that promotes a strong central government,
which party promotes the police state and expansive military spending? oh, the GOP
the GOP is ever as much about a strong, central government as the DEMs
quote:
diminished if not nonexistent personal freedoms.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:59 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Libertarians really get you going.
Not really. It’s just that many of them are actually worth debating, and having discussions with. Not so with marxist democrats. In 20 years of posting on political message boards, I’ve almost never learned anything of value from a democrat.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 11:59 am to Antonio Moss
the regulation cuts are the only super conservative thing Trump has done in office. that's the one rallying point
yeah we'll see how long the tax cuts last. i'm not holding my breath
yeah we'll see how long the tax cuts last. i'm not holding my breath
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:04 pm to MrCarton
Which fails to describe libertarianism as Libertarians reject hierarchical enforcement of certain behaviors - especially as it concerns social life.
You are viewing it in terms of market, and you are correct, but there political considerations outside of economics.
You are viewing it in terms of market, and you are correct, but there political considerations outside of economics.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
bro, do you admit the GOP is losing, and has been losing since at least FDR?
There are 170 elected libertarians in a country of 330 million people. Libertarians don’t hold a majority in as much as a school board in this entire country. And you want to discuss the GOP losing? Wait till I get my laughing fit over first.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:06 pm to Houma Sapien
I don't really have one.
Most of my views are an amalgamation of the two.
Most of my views are an amalgamation of the two.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:13 pm to troyt37
quote:
There are 170 elected libertarians in a country of 330 million people.
wasn't the question. why did you avoid answering a simple question?
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:16 pm to troyt37
quote:
There are 170 elected libertarians in a country of 330 million people. Libertarians don’t hold a majority in as much as a school board in this entire country. And you want to discuss the GOP losing? Wait till I get my laughing fit over first.
And “conservative” republicans keep “winning” all of these electoral majorities, yet keep losing ground in nearly every arena imaginable. That’s an impressive level of losing right there
Posted on 8/5/18 at 12:19 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Which fails to describe libertarianism as Libertarians reject hierarchical enforcement of certain behaviors - especially as it concerns social life.
False. This is absolutely false, and a key reason why the rest of the world views libertarianism as the vestige of basement dwelling would be libertines.
Libertarianism embraces hierarchical enforcement of social norms through the private property ethic described by Rothbard and refined to a micron edged point by Hans Hermann Hoppe of helicopter ride and "physical removal" fame.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 12:20 pm
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