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re: Conservative Christians rally around persecuted Judge Roy Moore
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:29 am to AUbused
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:29 am to AUbused
quote:
So when I say brand that does not necessarily imply that Christians have to falsify themselves. Im saying that instead of focusing on things like "homosexuals are an affront to god" and being so hardcore about abstinence only, no birth control, evolution etc they should shift focus. Love, forgiveness, charity.
But if the Bible says that formication, adultery, homosexuality and the like are sins that lead to death, and then you pretend they aren't and don't warn those practicing such sins simply to attract crowds, how is this real love?
Kids really like to eat candy and they think you are a mean parents if you try to keep them from it. But would any good parent let their children eat all the candy they wanted simply to win favor with them?
There is no such thing as Christianity lite.
This post was edited on 11/20/17 at 11:32 am
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Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:32 am to FooManChoo
quote:
His entire mission was to reveal the truth of salvation of the soul so that no matter your political position, if you trusted in His sacrifice, you could have eternal life. His message is so much greater than how to be nice to other people; it's about the glory of God in saving His people. Sin is a factor in this, which is why Jesus called people to repent. That's why Christians focus on homosexuality, abortion, sexual promiscuity, and the like, because we are called to be holy as He is holy.
I get all that, but this does not address my point that the interpretation of what is or is not holy has varied massively throughout time and is, imo, a major reason Christianity has managed to stay relevant as long as it has. Case in point, take they woman in Christian KeyserSoze's avatar. Not too terribly long ago that woman would have been in big trouble. The enforcement of modesty has all but diminished because the focus has been moved from certain portions of the biblical texts to others. As I said, the book didnt change, people did.
There are variants of Christianity that already accept homosexuals not only INTO the Church, but allow them to minister. You might argue that to be an affront to God. I would argue its the only way forward for the religion for the same exact reasons that Christians aren't found telling every young woman at the beach that her bikini is going to get her a one way ticket to hell. Because if that were happening the numbers in my graphic would be a WHOLE lot worse.
This post was edited on 11/20/17 at 11:37 am
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:47 am to FooManChoo
quote:
If Moore did those things he was accused of and repented of them
Ay, there's the rub! Moore has denied he even did them (against all appearances), much less repented of them.
In this way even a scummy soul like Al Franken is morally superior to Moore. At least he said he was sorry for his wrongful conduct.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:50 am to AUbused
quote:I disagree. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and only recently has some sects within it started accepting what has been condemned for 99% of that time. "Staying relevant" isn't the goal of the faith; the goal is to spread the truth of Christ and Him crucified. The truth doesn't change whether a billion people believe it, or one person believes it.
I get all that, but this does not address my point that the interpretation of what is or is not holy has varied massively throughout time and is, imo, a major reason Christianity has managed to stay relevant as long as it has.
quote:Yes and no. The people haven't changed at all; there were whore mongers, adulterers, homosexuals, fornicators, and all sorts of sexual perverts since the beginning of time. That hasn't changed a bit. What has changed is the liberalization of many churches within Christianity to the point where they don't preach about sin or condemn it when they see it in their congregations. They don't teach holiness but rather that God loves you just the way you are (and doesn't care if you change).
Case in point, take they woman in Christian KeyserSoze's avatar. Not too terribly long ago that woman would have been in big trouble. The enforcement of modesty has all but diminished because the focus has been moved from certain portions of the biblical texts to others. As I said, the book didnt change, people did.
You'll notice that aside from the sin of homosexuality in a minority of churches, you won't find many (if any) churches teaching that it's OK to be immodest or that it's fine to have pre- or extra-marital sex; they just aren't emphasizing its sinfulness, leaving professing Christians to do as they please.
quote:Yes, and those churches are in error.
There are variants of Christianity that already accept homosexuals not only INTO the Church, but allow them to minister.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:52 am to tarzana
quote:This is only true if the allegations against Moore are true, which you believe they are. If the allegations are false, then why should Moore repent? Why should he apologize for something he hasn't done?
Ay, there's the rub! Moore has denied he even did them (against all appearances), much less repented of them.
In this way even a scummy soul like Al Franken is morally superior to Moore. At least he said he was sorry for his wrongful conduct.
Franken has undeniable proof against him in the form of a picture. So far, the only proof against Moore is hearsay and a likely forged signature.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:54 am to FooManChoo
quote:
it's not a message that "sells, at least not Biblical Christianity."
True. Despite the Great Commandment, Christianity wins converts by attraction, not promotion. Because the world holds us to a higher standard, they're looking at what we're doing, more than what we're saying.
Actions always speak louder than words.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:55 am to FooManChoo
quote:
The people haven't changed at all; there were whore mongers, adulterers, homosexuals, fornicators, and all sorts of sexual perverts since the beginning of time. That hasn't changed a bit. What has changed is the liberalization of many churches within Christianity to the point where they don't preach about sin or condemn it when they see it in their congregations. They don't teach holiness but rather that God loves you just the way you are (and doesn't care if you change). You'll notice that aside from the sin of homosexuality in a minority of churches, you won't find many (if any) churches teaching that it's OK to be immodest or that it's fine to have pre- or extra-marital sex; they just aren't emphasizing its sinfulness, leaving professing Christians to do as they please.
All that is what I meant by "the people have changed". E.g the people doing the interpreting. Everything is based on interpretation.
quote:
You'll notice that aside from the sin of homosexuality in a minority of churches, you won't find many (if any) churches teaching that it's OK to be immodes
Sure, but do you preach to girls wearing bikinis? Not too long ago wearing that would have made someone a straight whore and she would likely have been cast out or worse.
As I said, interpretations of modesty change and if those interpretations change the it follows that others do as well.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 11:58 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Perhaps you'd like to educate me. I know that he was removed from his position as a judge because he refused to follow a higher court's ruling on removing the 10 commandments from a public space.
Which is a big problem. You can't let your religion transcend the rule of law. Voting him back into office is stubbornly supporting the idea of religion over law. Fortunately, we have a pesky constitution that prevents Roy Moore from getting his way.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:00 pm to AUbused
I love watching the right melt like this.. it is really glorious.. the fact is, a vote for Roy Moore is a vote for pedophilia.. you can try to spin it another way— but you’ll embarrass yourself, cause it is what it is... but please continue melting, this is fun.. too bad it’s wrapped up in an issue as heinous as child sexual abuse.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Christianity is viewed negatively bc the world is darkness, and we are light. Light and darkness cannot mix.
Christianity is viewed negatively by the world because of what it teaches.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:05 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:Obviously all Christians should live lives that give glory to God and we should be repenting daily of our sins, but the message of salvation is not how to live your best life now and how to be the best possible "you" for other people. The message is what Christ has done, not what I'm doing or what you're doing.
True. Despite the Great Commandment, Christianity wins converts by attraction, not promotion. Because the world holds us to a higher standard, they're looking at what we're doing, more than what we're saying.
Actions always speak louder than words.
What the scriptures teach is that converts are made through a changing of the heart by God by the preaching of the word. That phrase from St. Francis, "preach the gospel wherever you go, and if possible, use words" (or a variation of that) is false. The gospel is what Christ did, not what we do. What we do is the law (or against the law of God), not the gospel.
No matter how well we keep the law of Christ, we will never do so perfectly, and the world will look at us like hypocrites. That's why the message shouldn't be about our love for others and our good works, but Christ's love for us and His good works that made our salvation possible. We should repent of our sin and tell the world that the value of Christ doesn't come from me, but my value comes from Him. Our good works should flow from the truth of what Christ has done.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:05 pm to Sweltering Chill
quote:
too bad it’s wrapped up in an issue as heinous as child sexual abuse.
Can you link the evidence? Not what a person said, but solid proof. Otherwise you are a bigger idiot than what you claim Moore is.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:11 pm to FooManChoo
Agree. By Faith alone, not by anything we've done.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:14 pm to AUbused
quote:To a degree, you're right, but not all interpretations are correct. The orthodox (historical) view of Bible interpretation is that the clear passages should help us interpret the unclear passages. Those who interpret the Bible to accept sin are not interpreting the Bible, they are ignoring or rejecting it. If the Church has had a stance on sin for 2,000 years, changing it suddenly should create pause and reflection, because, as you said, the text hasn't changed.
All that is what I meant by "the people have changed". E.g the people doing the interpreting. Everything is based on interpretation.
That's why when a denomination changes its official stance on homosexuality, they should be rejected by the rest of the Church.
quote:Are there women wearing bikinis at your church?
Sure, but do you preach to girls wearing bikinis? Not too long ago wearing that would have made someone a straight whore and she would likely have been cast out or worse.
I "preach" to all kinds people, regardless of what they are wearing. What's important first of all is the need for everyone to realize they are sinners and deserving of God's wrath. Then once they hear this, you tell them of salvation in Jesus Christ. If a person has made a profession of faith, I'll start talking to them about particular sins that they should be addressing (or better yet, the church leadership should be doing that).
I preach modesty to my wife and children and to all who are in my circle of influence.
quote:Interpretations of modesty haven't changed much. Application of that interpretation has varied greatly in the past century.
As I said, interpretations of modesty change and if those interpretations change the it follows that others do as well.
The Church and Christians within it needs to constantly be reforming. We need to constantly be sanctified and changed to conform our behaviors to that of Jesus. Those who stray from the scriptures (as many seem to have done today) can easily be led astray, accepting as normative which should be condemned.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:17 pm to cahoots
quote:I was asked if I know about Roy Moore, with the insinuation being that he's not as much of a Christian as I think he is. What you said doesn't speak to that line of questioning.
Which is a big problem. You can't let your religion transcend the rule of law. Voting him back into office is stubbornly supporting the idea of religion over law. Fortunately, we have a pesky constitution that prevents Roy Moore from getting his way
Sometimes laws are unjust and should be ignored or fought. I agree with the rule of law in principle but not every law is right and should be followed. Obviously you disagree with his resistance against this particular ruling, but Moore thought it was an unjust ruling and paid the price for acting consistently with what he claims to believe.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:18 pm to airfernando
quote:Agree completely.
Christianity is viewed negatively bc the world is darkness, and we are light. Light and darkness cannot mix.
"but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" - 1 Cor. 1:23
Posted on 11/20/17 at 12:19 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
consistently with what he claims to believe.
Posted on 11/20/17 at 2:51 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Sometimes laws are unjust and should be ignored or fought. I agree with the rule of law in principle but not every law is right and should be followed. Obviously you disagree with his resistance against this particular ruling, but Moore thought it was an unjust ruling and paid the price for acting consistently with what he claims to believe.
Weak defense. Constitution > Religion. We don't need another person in office who doesn't respect that. And the people putting Roy Moore in office are well aware of his tendencies. They just don't give a shite
This post was edited on 11/20/17 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 11/20/17 at 3:22 pm to cahoots
quote:The Constitution doesn't say you can't have any reference to religion in the public sphere. That's a newer interpretation based on a Godless worldview.
Weak defense. Constitution > Religion. We don't need another person in office who doesn't respect that. And the people putting Roy Moore in office are well aware of his tendencies. They just don't give a shite
Regardless, he paid the consequences for sticking to his beliefs. If the people of Alabama are fine with his convictions, why should those outside of Alabama care?
Posted on 11/20/17 at 5:10 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The Constitution doesn't say you can't have any reference to religion in the public sphere. That's a newer interpretation based on a Godless worldview.
The Founders didn't do stuff like that, nor did anyone else in government for a long time. They also didn't start "in god we trust" or put "under god" in the pledge. All of that was added much later. The government was clear of religious references at its founding. Don't try to pin this on a "newer interpretation based on a godless worldview." Try reading some history books and get back to me.
This post was edited on 11/20/17 at 5:11 pm
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