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re: Conservatism doesn’t always equal Christianity
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:15 pm to BiteMe2020
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:15 pm to BiteMe2020
Not on testimony, but experiments and actual evidence
1
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:17 pm to Hammer of Rod
quote:
Not on testimony, but experiments and actual evidence
So, you've conducted these experiments first hand, have you?
The reason I picked something as trivial as the existence of atoms is because we all believe they exist, and yet only a small, tiny fraction of people have actually done the experiments first hand to prove that.
So, you're "experiments and actual evidence" are basically taken from a book somewhere?
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 5:19 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:28 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
So, you've conducted these experiments first hand, have you? The reason I picked something as trivial as the existence of atoms is because we all believe they exist, and yet only a small, tiny fraction of people have actually done the experiments first hand to prove that. So, you're "experiments and actual evidence" are basically taken from a book somewhere? This post was edited on 3/4 at 5:19 pm
Setting up straw men must be your specialty.
Never said I conducted experiments, but they have been conducted and accepted by the scientific community.
Now, show me any experiments or actual evidence for your belief.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:34 pm to Hammer of Rod
quote:
Setting up straw men must be your specialty.
Never said I conducted experiments, but they have been conducted and accepted by the scientific community.
Now, show me any experiments or actual evidence for your belief.
So, you take the existence of atoms on authority, then.
Thanks.
That was the point. No straw man at all.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:53 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
One wonders how ANYONE could in good faith place themselves in the Gnostic category on either theism or atheism.
Granted the following wouldn't apply to all gods, but with respect to the Christian God, depending on how he's defined, I could see someone claiming to know for sure that he doesn't exist.
One of God's many characteristics is being perfectly just. This turns out to be quite important as if he's judging human souls to be clean or contaminated with sin he needs to be perfect.
Mercy is the suspension of justice. Even if it's the suspension of a gram of justice (say breaking law A = 1,000 days in jail, and you as a judge give the law breaker 999 days in jail. You've shown mercy, however small).
How can a being both be perfectly just, and also be merciful?
I could claim with just as much certainty that that particular god doesn't exist as I can that a circular square doesn't exist. Or a married bachelor.
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 5:54 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:55 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
belief.
So, you take the existence of atoms on authority, then.
Thanks.
That was the point
Citing a qualified expert is not an appeal to authority
Try again
Posted on 3/4/21 at 5:58 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
So, you take the existence of atoms on authority, then.
No, he specifically mentioned experiments and other forms of evidence as reason to believe that atoms exist.
Taking something on authority would be believing something someone supposedly in a position of authority says simply because they say it.
If science were simply taken on authority, science textbooks would be much smaller and science tests would be much easier
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 5:59 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:33 pm to Azkiger
quote:
No, he specifically mentioned experiments and other forms of evidence as reason to believe that atoms exist.
But, he takes the people who described those experiments at their word, ergo, on authority.
This was an example, but hopefully one that makes a point. If you didn't conduct the experiment yourself, you're taking it upon authority.
Much of mine and your knowledge of science is indeed taken upon authority, and not direct observation.
Ontology and epistemology are important. How we come to "know" things is fascinating in and of itself.
Things we take as fact or as proven fact, we've only read about. So, it begs the question, what level of skepticism do you have?
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:39 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:40 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
But, he takes the people who described those experiments at their word, ergo, on authority.
Experiments and their results are what science is built on, not people's opinions.
There's no logical fallacy in looking at an experiment done by someone else, thinking that everything looks solid, and accepting the conclusions of said experiment.
To try and mash that into the same phrase as someone literally just quoting someone else is lazy and borderline dishonest.
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:42 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:47 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
But, he takes the people who described those experiments at their word, ergo, on authority. This was an example, but hopefully one that makes a point. If you didn't conduct the experiment yourself, you're taking it upon authority.
No sir. If you don’t understand what an appeal to authority is, go look it up.
If you can’t see that your “point “ is fallacious, I don’t know what to tell you.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:48 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Experiments and their results are what science is built on, not people's opinions.
Reading a fact in a book you didn't observe doesn't make it opinion.
quote:
There's no logical fallacy in looking at an experiment done by someone else, thinking that everything looks solid, and accepting the conclusions of said experiment.
To try and mash that into the same phrase as someone literally just quoting someone else is lazy and borderline dishonest.
It's a matter of how we know things.
There's no dishonesty there. If I read about a scientific experiment, I'm not necessarily converting the writing to opinion, nor am I saying that the statements written are false. Just that I choose to take the statements on their word, or not. Millions of scientific experiments are conducted each year, and you, nor I, conducted any of them, or very few of them. If you take them for fact - any of them - you're taking them on the word of someone else that they were done as described and produced the results described.
I'm just making a point that much of what we "know" we have actually taken for fact from someone we trust, not because we've observed it ourselves.
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:50 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:49 pm to BiteMe2020
I get it, you are intellectually dishonest.
Good enough
Good enough
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:50 pm to Hammer of Rod
quote:
I get it, you are intellectually dishonest.
Good enough
How so? You can't really say. Missing the point I've made doesn't make me dishonest.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:54 pm to Hammer of Rod
quote:
No sir. If you don’t understand what an appeal to authority is, go look it up.
If you can’t see that your “point “ is fallacious, I don’t know what to tell you.
A logical fallacy doesn't necessarily make the assertion false. It's not a deductive fallacy.
I take lots of things on authority. Including what the moon is made of, the strength of gravity, the number of calories in a slice of cheese, etc. I tend to believe the moon is made of rock, and not cheese, as some have asserted. Neither you nor I have been there, so we will have to rely on the word of others.
How is my point "fallacious"?
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:55 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:55 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
Reading a fact in a book you didn't observe doesn't make it opinion.
Exactly, which is why relying on it wouldn't be an appeal to authority.
quote:
I'm just making a point that much of what we "know" we have actually taken for fact from someone we trust, not because we've observed it ourselves.
While that's true, it's not an appeal to authority.
Appeal to Authority: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered.
- Source
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:56 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:55 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Exactly, which is why relying on it wouldn't be an appeal to authority.
So you don't believe anything you read at all? I'm not claiming that relying upon an authority always results in one being wrong. In fact, quite the opposite. You still appeal to authority to know lots of things.
This post was edited on 3/4/21 at 6:57 pm
Posted on 3/4/21 at 6:58 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
So you don't believe anything you read at all?
I believe lots of things that I read.
quote:
I'm not claiming that relying upon an authority always results in one being wrong.
I never claimed you claimed that. You are claiming that it's a logical fallacy when it's not, though.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 7:12 pm to Azkiger
Good post, Revelator 
I'm Christian and Conservative. I seem to butt heads too much in church with others that seem to hold true to America as their religion. I'm as patriotic as anyone but politics shouldn't come from the pulpit.
Politics and Christianity are far from mutually exclusive but, IMO, there is so much more to preach about than politics.
If Jesus could vote would he vote Republican or Democrat?
Neither. Jesus wasn't American!
I'm Christian and Conservative. I seem to butt heads too much in church with others that seem to hold true to America as their religion. I'm as patriotic as anyone but politics shouldn't come from the pulpit.
Politics and Christianity are far from mutually exclusive but, IMO, there is so much more to preach about than politics.
If Jesus could vote would he vote Republican or Democrat?
Neither. Jesus wasn't American!
Posted on 3/4/21 at 7:33 pm to Azkiger
quote:
I never claimed you claimed that. You are claiming that it's a logical fallacy when it's not, though.
No, I'm not claiming that an appeal to authority is automatically a fallacy. Most of what we think we know is based upon authority, from the time our parents and teachers teach us things to what we read as adults.
Posted on 3/4/21 at 7:38 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
A logical fallacy doesn't necessarily make the assertion false. It's not a deductive fallacy.
That's what you told Hammer of Rod. It's quite clear you were claiming that his trust in scientific experiments were committing the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy.
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