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Started By
Message
re: Colorado is trying to disqualify Trump from the ballot
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:13 am to Robin Masters
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:13 am to Robin Masters
quote:
The fact that there is zero precedent
There is a ton of precedent, just not much in the last 150 years. But Trump is not the first one challenged under the 14th Amendment since 2021.
quote:
the law clearly needs to be thinly stretched to achieve the desired outcome
I'm not sure what is being "thinly" stretched here. We have a Constitutional Amendment that says any public office holder who engaged in insurrection against the US is barred from holding future public office.
The only question is who is empowered to decide whether someone "engaged in insurrection". Ultimately it will be a court, but there is nothing in the Amendment that requires any sort of criminal proceeding before the person is disqualified from office.
It's a Constitutional Amendment. It supersedes any prior Constitutional provisions that may be inconsistent. So, any arguments about due process, free speech, etc. are not really applicable.
1
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:15 am to Dday63
quote:
he only question is who is empowered to decide whether someone "engaged in insurrection". Ultimately it will be a court, but there is nothing in the Amendment that requires any sort of criminal proceeding before the person is disqualified from office.
Insurrection is a crime. People are innocent until proven guilty. Please tell me you aren't confounded by these details?
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:17 am to VolcanicTiger
quote:
Maybe all red states should pass laws banning anyone who has ever supported a Communist from being on any ballot, from governor to dog catcher. Go 100% red in perpetuity
That would be cool, but they would need a Constitutional Amendment, like the one being invoked in Colorado.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:19 am to GumboPot
quote:AGAIN, this is NOT a criminal proceeding. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does NOT require a criminal conviction.
Is Trump the only U.S. citizen that does not enjoy the right to presumption of innocence?
It will move forward as a CIVIL proceeding, and the plaintiffs will have the burden of proving their case by a PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:20 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
Due process be damned. Simply being charged qualifies for DQ.
The dems are counting on their horribly biased juries to get a "conviction" to sandbag their lies and false charges.
The SC should put a stop to this to avoid a prolonged constitutional crisis.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:21 am to OysterPoBoy
quote:
Try it assholes
Genuinely interested in what your response would be.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:22 am to AggieHank86
So discrimination?
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:23 am to AggieHank86
quote:
AGAIN, this is NOT a criminal proceeding. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does NOT require a criminal conviction.
Genuinely curious how one would become guilty of insurrection without a criminal conviction?
But please use simple terms, I'm not a high powered attorney with nothing to do but dick off on a chit chat board on a Thursday morning.
This post was edited on 9/7/23 at 10:25 am
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:24 am to Robin Masters
quote:And that observation would be entirely relevant if he were the named defendant in a criminal prosecution under 18 USC 2383 for "insurrection."
Insurrection is a crime. People are innocent until proven guilty.
quote:No one with any legal training or experience seems to be "confounded" at all.
Please tell me you aren't confounded by these details?
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:25 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Ronbots
The three or four of us here really piss you off huh?
What’s your biggest fear from our small group?
You can be honest.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:27 am to Dday63
quote:Or I suppose that they could file a similar lawsuit NOW, asserting that mere membership in the Communist Party constitutes "insurrection."quote:That would be cool, but they would need a Constitutional Amendment, like the one being invoked in Colorado.
Maybe all red states should pass laws banning anyone who has ever supported a Communist from being on any ballot, from governor to dog catcher. Go 100% red in perpetuity
Hell, in the right State, they might even win.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:30 am to geauxbrown
quote:
Genuinely interested in what your response would be.
I posted wondering the same but then Hank's brain melted.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:34 am to Robin Masters
quote:You are all wrapped around the axle using the word "guilty," which DOES NOT appear in Section 3. In essence, you are mentally creating a Constitutional requirement which IS NOT found in the Constitution.quote:Genuinely curious how one would become guilty of insurrection without a criminal conviction?
AGAIN, this is NOT a criminal proceeding. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does NOT require a criminal conviction.
It seems clear (to me, at least) that the draftsmen of the 14th Amendment intentionally avoided that terminology BECAUSE they knew that the soldiers who had fought for the South in the Civil War were NOT going to be defendants in criminal proceedings, due to the amnesty they had been granted in the Proclamation and Reconstruction of Amnesty.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:42 am to AggieHank86
quote:
You are all wrapped around the axle using the word "guilty," which DOES NOT appear in Section 3. In essence, you are mentally creating a Constitutional requirement which IS NOT found in the Constitution.
Please tell me you aren't serious. Because in order to be a criminal you have to be convicted of a crime.
If a law firm said they would not consider any candidates who had committed malpractice would you assume that also included people who were only accused of malpractice?
This post was edited on 9/7/23 at 10:43 am
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:46 am to Robin Masters
quote:Entirely, as are the other posters who have explained exactly the same thing.
You are all wrapped around the axle using the word "guilty," which DOES NOT appear in Section 3. In essence, you are mentally creating a Constitutional requirement which IS NOT found in the Constitution.quote:
Please tell me you aren't serious.
quote:Look, you continue to insist upon inserting a "criminality" element into Section 3 ... that simply IS NOT THERE.
Because in order to be a criminal you have to be convicted of a crime.
Three posters have explained it, and you just do not accept it.
Look at it this way. Did OJ Simpson murder Nicole Simpson? Like about 90% of the population (and me) you probably think that he did. But he was acquitted. No crime, right? BUT, he also got hit with a HUGE civil judgment, because the burden of proof was different.
This post was edited on 9/7/23 at 10:49 am
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:47 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
Trump doesn't have a chance at winning Colorado anyway
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:54 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Look at it this way. Did OJ Simpson murder Nicole Simpson? Like about 90% of the population (and me) you probably think that he did. But he was acquitted. No crime, right? BUT, he also got hit with a HUGE civil judgment, because the burden of proof was different.
Wrongful death is not murder. Where did you go to law school again?
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:54 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Looks like they already have.
You agree with it too probably.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:54 am to OysterPoBoy
quote:
Try it assholes.
Just curious... If they keep Trump off the ballot, what are your plans?
and by that I mean... What is anybody going to be able to do? I sure don;t see us rioting blm style.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 10:59 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
Cucky Mountain high...in the Colorado
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