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Message
re: Church splits are coming. Preached to about this. (UMC Related)
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:09 am to HailToTheChiz
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:09 am to HailToTheChiz
Dennis Praeger was right when he said the left never creates, they always destroy
1
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:10 am to BestBanker
And in the very next breath, he says the following:
Martin Luther has caused you to stumble.
quote:
If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
Martin Luther has caused you to stumble.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:13 am to RaginSaint43
quote:
We have had popes commit acts of apostasy, heresy and grave immortalities.
Such as?
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:17 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Martin Luther has caused you to stumble.
Man, if you happen to get to heaven, you're in for a shock. Gonna be lots of people there you would never have let in, and plenty of others missing.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:23 am to coachcrisp
quote:
The churches that favor gay clergy will have to branch off from the United Methodist, and form their own ministry.
My understanding is if a church decides to exclude homosexual clergy and same sex marriages, they will branch off to the "new" segment called, "traditional" and those who remain will continue to be considered UMC. Times...they are a changing.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:23 am to mtntiger
quote:
Man, if you happen to get to heaven, you're in for a shock. Gonna be lots of people there you would never have let in, and plenty of others missing.
Oh, I don't doubt it.
I legitimately wouldn't be surprised if I saw the Commandant of Auschwitz there if I am fortunate enough to make it to Heaven. I also wouldn't be surprised to not see the priests who refused to hear his confession before his execution.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:39 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Such as?
Apostasy one that may shock you is Pope St. Marcellinus, who offered incense to an idol during the time of persecution. Fortunately he repented of his apostasy and died a martyrs death, but clearly committed an act of apostasy. If you want to include recent times, you can have all the craziness of JP2 whether it be Assisi or other events like it and maybe even the pachamama stuff with Francis.
Heresy: Pope Honorius I was condemned as a monothelitist heretic by the Third council of Constantinople, which was ratified by Pope Leo II. Pope Stephen I declared that baptism in the name of Jesus was valid, which at the time (254) was firmly against the tradition and considered heresy. Most famously, the “material heretic,” John XXII. Preached the false doctrine of soul sleep and denied the attainment of the beatific vision prior to the resurrection. CA would conveniently point that he repented when corrected, on the contrary, that is not what happened. He first preached his heresy, was corrected by two Dominicans. He put both those Dominicans in prison. He then preached it again. The university of Paris was in outrage and were preparing refutations against his words. He then preached it a third time and then demanded the University of Paris, teach his false doctrine. The Holy Roman Emperor (who was not in good terms with the pontiff) demanded he cease saying these things or he would burn him at the stake. The pope stopped preaching it. He never publicly repented of his words and according to his nephews, on his deathbed claimed, “everything I taught, I taught as a private theologian.” This sounds a lot like formal heresy to me. He didn’t even recant of his error. The next pope formally declared his teachings heretical.
To be fair to CA, they get a lot of those mental gymnastics from Bellarmine, who though fantastic, made some jumps in saying popes were never in error. Which btw, saying so does not go against Vatican I.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:42 am to upgrayedd
quote:
Dennis Praeger was right when he said the left never creates, they always destroy
This is just false
think of all the genders they've created
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:43 am to Pettifogger
quote:
This is just false
think of all the genders they've created
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:50 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:Because they don't want their church.
why can't the people who want change be the ones to form their own church
They want to change YOU.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 11:59 am to RaginSaint43
quote:
Apostasy one that may shock you is Pope St. Marcellinus, who offered incense to an idol during the time of persecution. Fortunately he repented of his apostasy and died a martyrs death, but clearly committed an act of apostasy.
The story in question is based entirely on a now nonextant work known as the Acts of St. Marcellinus. St. Augustine denied such a thing ever happened.
quote:
Pope Honorius I was condemned as a monothelitist heretic by the Third council of Constantinople, which was ratified by Pope Leo II.
Pope Leo II's letter of confirmation authoratatively altered the council's condemnation of Honorius, stopping short of calling him a heretic. He instead criticized Honorius on his silence during the heresy instead of outright condemning him as a heretic.
quote:
Pope Stephen I declared that baptism in the name of Jesus was valid, which at the time (254) was firmly against the tradition and considered heresy.
This isn't true. He declared that re-baptism was not necessary for those who had lapsed during the Decian persecution. Only repentance was necessary to re-join the Church. That is not heresy. It might not have been traditional at the time, but it was most certainly not heretical.
quote:
John XXII
This is probably the closest a pope has ever come to heresy. However, it is only heretical when it becomes official church teaching. While John XXII gave sermons on it, talked about it, and discussed it, he never once declared it official church teaching and thus prevented himself from entering into formal heresy. And, of course, he did eventually back down from this position and agreed that those who died in grace will enjoy the beatific vision. His immediate successor, Benedict XII, formally defined this as church teaching.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 12:01 pm to CCT
quote:Technically I suppose but not really. The Annual Conference for that state appoints the clergy and only they can remove them. The church can insist on a replacement but if it's just because they don't like him, replacement won't take place until the next appointment cycle. If the grounds for dismissal are legit; morals, embezzling, etc., it would be rare but not unheard of to move a pastor until annual appointments are made.
Up to a point within the framework of the United Methodist guidelines. A local church can fire a minister, but a replacement needs to be a United Methodist minister.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 12:05 pm to HailToTheChiz
As I mentioned in another thread yesterday, search Indianapolis Plan UMC. It breaks it out into the 3 divisions. Wesleyan Covenant Association is a good source if you are of the conservative, tradionalist segment.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 12:07 pm to Diamondawg
Posted on 2/17/20 at 12:45 pm to HailToTheChiz
quote:They “The LGBTQ Folks” want to destroy Christianity because the Christian belief is as our Lord taught and our God demonstrated @ Sodom & Gomorrah, He don’t like that stuff...
Lastly, why can't the people who want change be the ones to form their own church with all other LGBTQ folks?
Posted on 2/17/20 at 1:00 pm to 4x4tiger
I really like my libtard UMC pastor. He is great in most respects but the way emphasizes the word “Justice” gets on my nerves.
Posted on 2/17/20 at 1:15 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
The story in question is based entirely on a now nonextant work known as the Acts of St. Marcellinus. St. Augustine denied such a thing ever happened.
Historically fought over, but never thought as impossible during that time. Which is important. Btw what about Assisi?
quote:
Pope Leo II's letter of confirmation authoratatively altered the council's condemnation of Honorius, stopping short of calling him a heretic. He instead criticized Honorius on his silence during the heresy instead of outright condemning him as a heretic.
Have you read Honorius’ letter in question? That seems like heresy.
quote:
This isn't true. He declared that re-baptism was not necessary for those who had lapsed during the Decian persecution. Only repentance was necessary to re-join the Church. That is not heresy. It might not have been traditional at the time, but it was most certainly not heretical.
He accepted baptisms in the name of Jesus as valid. This was definitely controversial because it was apparent in the teachings of the apostles, The didache, which was accepted thoroughly as authentic, outlines a Trinitarian formula. Which leads to the next point you state...
quote:
However, it is only heretical when it becomes official church teaching.
According to the Vatican council, the ordinary magisterium of the church is also the churches teaching. There are distinctions however. Dogma are things that are clearly defined, de fide, and also there different levels of teachings *see Otts Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma for more of the specifics,* whether they be sententia certa and things approximate to doctrine and deduced that should be held. You can definitely be a heretic on things that are not formally defined, for example, I’m sure you would consider one who denies the perpetual virginity of the BVM a heretic right? Since all teachings come from either the scripture and tradition, someone can definitely be a heretic before it is defined. Some things are more nuanced and disputed over the years like, the immaculate conception or even infallibility. Maybe John XXII was safe because of this, but the reaction of the church seems to point that it was clear enough for the next pope to formally define it.
Btw. Where you live baw? It’s good to talk to people like this on here
This post was edited on 2/17/20 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 2/17/20 at 1:34 pm to Eli Goldfinger
quote:
I think independent congregations such as Church of Christ have had it right all along. No governing body.
That is crazy for many reasons. no accountability or reporting or oversight. Can you say heretics?
HELLO JIM JONES KOOL AID DRINKERS! UNITE!
Posted on 2/17/20 at 1:44 pm to HailToTheChiz
quote:This is what ghey marriage movement was all about—causing problems for religious people.
Lastly, why can't the people who want change be the ones to form their own church with all other LGBTQ folks?
Posted on 2/17/20 at 1:59 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
God is on the side of the One, True Church
God is on the side of righteousness - not self-righteousness. Churches that appease to the masses instead of the word of the Lord will find themselves in hot water. Pun intended.
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