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Started By
Message
re: Bakhmut has Fallen - Wagner Announces Capture of Bakhmut
Posted on 5/23/23 at 8:42 am to jimmy the leg
Posted on 5/23/23 at 8:42 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
I would take you more seriously if you had some semblance of credibility. You are all in on war, but would never actually put yourself in harms way.
I’d take you more seriously if you actually knew me, and didn’t label me without knowing anything about me. Instead you sit there and dismiss my opinion because it’s different from yours.
First of all, I was never for this war. I was upset when I heard Russia ratcheted up their invasion and pushed towards Kiev, Mariupol and Odessa. I felt terrible for the Ukrainians caught in the war zone. I believed Russia would steam roll Ukraine in less than three months the war would be over, and like in Crimea, Georgia and elsewhere Russia would emerge victorious and more people would be under their thumb.
But Ukrainians thought otherwise and held Russia back in certain areas and three them back from taking Kiev. All this was prior to them getting a large amount of Western aid. The Ukrainians weren’t rolling over and they didn’t want to be under Russian control. They were going to fight and for their sovereignty.
That’s why I want Ukraine to win. The sooner the better.
Now you can keep pounding the drum for peace when the peace you really want us a Russian takeover of Ukraine and Russian control over people who hate their guts.
As for the notion that you actually have to have war experience to form an opinion on the war, that’s complete nonsense.
This post was edited on 5/23/23 at 8:45 am
5
Posted on 5/23/23 at 8:45 am to doubleb
quote:
Now you can keep pounding the drum for peace when the peace you really want us a Russian takeover of Ukraine and Russian control over people who hate their guts.
Yep
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:01 am to doubleb
quote:That won't happen. It's sad. Given the sacrifices, it's horrible. But Ukraine is not going to win, at least as you would define "win."
That’s why I want Ukraine to win
So given that fact, do you want the bloodshed to end, or to continue? If you'd want the bloodshed to end, how would you see that occurring?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:14 am to doubleb
quote:What about the millions in Donetsk who democratically elected the pro-Russian president that the Maidan revolution (supported by $5 billion of US aid) deposed in 2014? Those same people who were subsequently attacked by their own government?
Now you can keep pounding the drum for peace when the peace you really want us a Russian takeover of Ukraine and Russian control over people who hate their guts.
You're idea of peace is for them to be subjugated (or killed). But that's okay, because they're filthy Putinistas, so they deserve to die for the cause of "democracy", right?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:15 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
So given that fact, do you want the bloodshed to end, or to continue? If you'd want the bloodshed to end, how would you see that occurring?
What would George Washington have said at Valley Forge?
What would R E Lee have said in 1863?
What would Churchill have said in 1943?
The list could go on and on.
The decision isn’t mine or yours. The decision is Ukraine’s. They are fighting and dying by the hundreds to stay free of Russia. They are fighting like hell for their freedom from Russia.
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:18 am to rds dc
So the Wagner Nazis beat the Azov Nazis?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:22 am to texas tortilla
quote:
LINK pretty good article from zero hedge. ukraine-fade to black.
quote:
- with just enough surviving soldiers left looking to hunt down the comedian who turned Ukraine into another one history’s sick jokes.
Now the sooner the better that ^^^ happens for the Ukrainians and the taxpaying Americans
This post was edited on 5/23/23 at 9:24 am
Posted on 5/23/23 at 9:40 am to Porpus
quote:
I send my heartfelt congratulations to President Putin and Patriarch Kiril. You are the last hope of civilized people.
This is such an insane and embarrassing take. No matter what you think about war, rooting for Putin should never be in the cards. How did we get to this point where people are cheering on a dictator thug that would love to see the disintegration of the United States? That invaded one of his neighbors and I’m sure if it went over better than it has would do it again because his goal is to get the USSR gang back together?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 10:00 am to doubleb
quote:Of course not. I didn't ask for you to enter peace negotiations for Ukraine.
The decision isn’t mine or yours.
Fantasy desires are fun. In that fairytale world, there is a way for LSU to win its next 60 football games and 4 straight MNCs. In that world there is a way for Ukraine to retake all its pre-2014 territory. Those would be lovely results, but they are not realistic.
Likewise, I'd love to role the clock back to 2008, and slap W and Condi into the middle of next week when the dumbasses thought NATO expansion into Ukraine/Georgia was a good idea. Even better, do the same to Clinton when he decided to undercut Yeltsin and first broke the the original NATO non-expansion promises. But what I'd love is irrelevant.
That's why I asked a question based on facts as they exist. Pragmatically (assuming you'd want the bloodshed to end) how would you see the end of bloodshed occurring?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 10:02 am to Barbarosa
quote:Indeed.
rooting for Putin should never be in the cards.
Posted on 5/23/23 at 10:04 am to TideHater
quote:Oh boy.
Wagner Nazis
Posted on 5/23/23 at 10:23 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Various elements of Wagner have been linked to white supremacist and neo-Nazi far-right extremists,[61][87][62] such as Wagner's openly far-right and neo-Nazi Rusich unit,[92][93][94][95] and Wagner members have left neo-Nazi graffiti on the battlefield
Posted on 5/23/23 at 10:44 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Fantasy desires are fun. In that fairytale world, there is a way for LSU to win its next 60 football games and 4 straight MNCs. In that world there is a way for Ukraine to retake all its pre-2014 territory. Those would be lovely results, but they are not realistic.
Did you ever play college football?
quote:
Likewise, I'd love to role the clock back to 2008, and slap W and Condi into the middle of next week when the dumbasses thought NATO expansion into Ukraine/Georgia was a good idea. Even better, do the same to Clinton when he decided to undercut Yeltsin and first broke the the original NATO non-expansion promises. But what I'd love is irrelevant.
Likewise, it would have been great that after the Iron Curtain fell and nations were created and nations were freed; that Russia would have given up their nukes and became more friendly ti their neighbors and to the West. Maybe then Eastern European countries would not have wanted to join NATO. After all Russia was the impetus for all this
.
quote:
That's why I asked a question based on facts as they exist. Pragmatically (assuming you'd want the bloodshed to end) how would you see the end of bloodshed occurring?
Oh, if I had my way, the Ukraine counterattack would be a stunning success. Wagner would be gone, Russian troops in disarray and Putin facing severe pressure at home to the point a white knight comes in and takes him out. The new regime would reach out and a peace negotiated to the satisfaction of both parties.
Is this a fantasy? Sure, it may be. But that’s the only way I see it ending quickly. I don’t believe Russia has the muscle to win conventionally.
This post was edited on 5/23/23 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:01 am to TideHater
quote:Kind of like Trump and his administration along with all his supporters are Nazis?
neo-Nazi far-right extremists
FYI, in Russia, unlike the US or Ukraine, participation in Nazi organizations is a criminal offense. The penalties include significant fines and, depending on circumstances, lengthy imprisonment.
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:22 am to NC_Tigah
Oh my goodness
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:25 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
FYI, in Russia, unlike the US or Ukraine, participation in Nazi organizations is a criminal offense. The penalties include significant fines and, depending on circumstances, lengthy imprisonment.
The key here is who gets to determine what a Nazi organization is.
In Russia the government has always been the determining factor.
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:32 am to doubleb
quote:Almost.
Did you ever play college football?
quote:Depends on your definition of "win". I think Russia would like to have rolled Ukraine, deposed Zelensky and installed a puppet government. It ain't happening. Ukraine did a great job of repelling that effort.
I don’t believe Russia has the muscle to win conventionally.
IMO at this stage, if Russia gains control the 4 southeastern oblasts, they'll dig in, harden their defenses and call it a win.
We are much closer to that endpoint than we are to Ukraine retaking its 2021 land. The closer we get to Russia's "win," the less likely Russia is to consent to any Kissenger-type negotiated solution.
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:43 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Almost.
You know I was kidding, others here believe if you didn’t serve you can’t form and express an opinion.
quote:
Depends on your definition of "win". I think Russia would like to have rolled Ukraine, deposed Zelensky and installed a puppet government. It ain't happening. Ukraine did a great job of repelling that effort. IMO at this stage, if Russia gains control the 4 southeastern oblasts, they'll dig in, harden their defenses and call it a win. We are much closer to that endpoint than we are to Ukraine retaking its 2021 land. The closer we get to Russia's "win," the less likely Russia is to consent to any Kissenger-type negotiated solution.
I see it the same way buddy. If Russia is successful at keeping things as they are then they will end up gaining territory. They can and will say that was their plan all along.
But that win will come at a big price in men, material, money, prestige, and it has hardened their neighbors against them.
In that scenario will we see a Korean situation? Will it be more like the situation in Israel? It certainly won’t be like the US and Canada. And will Russia luck their wounds and try to take over Ukraine in a decade or so? Who knows?
Posted on 5/23/23 at 11:54 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
FYI, in Russia, unlike the US or Ukraine, participation in Nazi organizations is a criminal offense. The penalties include significant fines and, depending on circumstances, lengthy imprisonment.
Wagner is not Russian. They were hired by the Putin. They are Nazis. Azov are Nazis. Democrats are Nazis. Crimson Tide are Nazis.
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