re: Bad news for the “you do you” IVF crowd. Gay surrogate father is a tier 1 sex offender.

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Do you go find IVF kids and tell them they are abominations to God? That's what you're doing in this thread.

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Faulty logic

An IVF child is not an abomination, but that does not mean that the methods used to bring them about were moral. Anymore than a child conceived thru rape or adultery is an abomination. You still shouldn’t rape or commit adultery.

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Do you think it was God's intention to have pain killers during birth? Should we due away with those or any modern medicine because that's just the way you were born?

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Do painkillers create new life? Or end life?

I don’t understand the link between painkillers and the moral issues around IVF?

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I think you missed the population sampling of that poll.

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No, I didn't. What exactly about the population sampling would necessitate people being informed on how IVF works? I didn't see anything.

I had this discussion with an associate pastor at my church because there is a couple who has been trying IVF for over a year with repeated rounds of implantation and the church rallies around them and encourages them each time they do it.

I asked him why that was something we were affirming as a church and I had to explain to him how the procedure works. He had no idea that it is a standard part of the protocol that multiple fertilized embryos are discarded with each round of implantation. He had no idea that their multiple rounds of implantation resulted in the equivalent of 15-20 aborted embryos/fetuses, and that that is an expected part of the procedure...it's not that they implanted 15-20 embryos and they all failed...they threw them in the trash can. That's how IVF works. So the result is the same as if that woman had had 20 abortions in a year and a half.

He had no idea. And guaranteed, neither do the vast majority of people in that poll—the population sampling actually proves my point rather than yours. If these are people who believe that human life begins at conception, why are they in favor of something that kills human life in utero at a clip of a half dozen at a time? The only reason I can think of is that they don't understand that that is what is happening.

But let's test it.

You ridicule someone being opposed to IVF as being "crazy."

Do you also think anyone who is opposed to abortion is crazy?

If not, how is opposing one discarded human in utero not crazy, but opposing multiple discarded humans in utero is crazy?

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By supporting gay marriage, then you must support gay adoption and surrogacy

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I don't care what two grown people do in their home. I believe it is a sin, but even Jesus allowed people to continue in their sin. Adoption of another human means that third person (child) is not able to consent and therefore gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children.

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By supporting IVF for the cases you like, you are also supporting it for these cases

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IVF is something I am just now forming an opinion on. I can certainly understand a couple wanting their own children and seeing this as a viable option. I do have issues with the amount of lives it costs to get one or two new lives. This doesn't mean that I support giving the baby to two gay men...

The "you are either with us or against us and there's no in between" argument is rarely valid.

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Leads me to believe that he himself doesn't know anything about how IVF works.

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I do

I also posted data proving my claim about the stance being a particular brand of crazy extremist

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I don't care what two grown people do in their home. I believe it is a sin, but even Jesus allowed people to continue in their sin.

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Marriage is not “in two people’s homes”
Marriage is a public act. And is forcing the public to go along with a lie. That is what the “gay marriage” thing is all about and always was. It’s not about two dudes doing sinful things behind closed doors.

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Marriage is a public act. And is forcing the public to go along with a lie.

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Then what is marriage?

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First you have to describe what kind of marriage you're discussing. Legal or religious?

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Why do gays need to be “married”?

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Many people see it as a fundamental right.

There are also serious legal issues both with advantages of marriage and for denying marriages to certain groups.

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IVF is a "tool". You can't have it both ways in your argument when you use the words 'trying to play God"

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IVF is not a tool. IVF is a specific procedure, it’s an act. The test tube for example would be the equivalent to the gun. A test tube can be used for a lot of purposes, I am not advocating to ban test tubes anymore than I am advocating for banning guns

Test tubes are like guns

The same as

IVF is like murder

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We both know it's by design

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We do.

But posting a conclusive statement pushes neutral parties away from investigating for themselves.

If you posit a question and present objective facts they can arrive at their own conclusion that they might not get to if it’s “forced” on them.