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Message
re: Are you a nationalist?
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:39 pm to SavageOrangeJug
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:39 pm to SavageOrangeJug
‘Merica. Semper Fi
0
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:39 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:That is because your context ignores the axial relationship of a nationalist's devotion to his or her nation rather than to any particular belief set.
But this makes no sense in the context I'm discussing.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:41 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:and you understand that Germany as a nation predated the Nazis, right?
You understand Lebensraum and volkisch were ideas that predated the Nazis, right?
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:44 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I'm just saying that pop culture and the media has made the term negative because they wanted to use it as a cudgel, not because they share your interest in European history.
Hence why I mentioned the student at the University of Virginia. Due to the media's use of the term, I feel as though there is a correlation between her hearing/reading that white nationalism = evil whitey, and her mindset that she vocalized towards the white students in the multicultural center.
To me...no matter the historical origin, this is a form of propoganda used to reinforce a false narrative (white people = bad, especially straight white males in the south...see the reaction to the Covington students as a manifestation of this in action).
Based on her actions, my concern is that what I perceive as propoganda is taking root philosophically. Unfortunately, it seems to be becoming the norm.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
That is because your context ignores the axial relationship of a nationalist's devotion to his or her nation rather than to any particular belief set.
Except in all 3 cases to which I'm referring, the nation as the nationalists envisioned it did not yet exist. German nationalism was specifically pan-Germanic, and thus extra-territorial by definition. That it became the official policy of both Imperial Germany in 1914 and Nazi Germany means that what individual Germans felt about it is meaningless.
Turkish nationalists, best exemplified by the Young Turks, were operating within an Ottoman milieu ,with the justification that Anatolia would be the Turks last stand, after losing quite a lot of land from 1830 to 1913.
In the Serbian case, it was the Serbian nationalists who undermined the pan-Slavic Yugoslav nationalists by insisting on a Serb-oriented centralization rather than the federal version desired by other Yugoslav groups, which poisoned the union from the beginning, and set the stage for numerous atrocities committed by lots of groups in WWI and WWII.
The orientation of these groups often had expansionist, revanchist and/or irredentist claims, meaning that a fundamental aspect of their nationalism meant that they would come into conflict with neighbors, which they all did. Simple nationalist devotion to lands or nations which did not yet exist is not a sufficient explanation for what actually occurred.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:56 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
and you understand that Germany as a nation predated the Nazis, right?
You understand that not all Germans lived in Germany, hence why Septemberprogramm and Lebensraum became central to the German state, which had explicit Pan-Germanic desires. That is literally the context of Lebensraum, to unite the German people and to remove inferior peoples from Eastern Europe.
The threat of German nationalism was so deeply ingrained in the minds of the allies that after the war, they forcibly expelled millions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe to Germany and Austria proper, which accounted for the second largest mass migration of people in human history. This doesn't factor in the expulsion of the Volga Germans from the USSR either.
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 2/26/20 at 12:57 pm to 225bred
quote:
Everything is a spectrum, mannnnnnn
It is a spectrum. Everyone doesn't believe everything a party supports.
Nationalism has good and bad sides just like any other political philosophy. All parties have their extremists, and the best way to combat them is to educate yourself on etymology and history behind these terms.
Why do you have to hate Y in order to love X? That's why so many interpretations of nationalism exist.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:03 pm to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
Are you a nationalist
Yes and I happen to be white. That said, I love my fellow black, brown, red & yellow fellow nationalist. I just wish their numbers were greater.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:19 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:I think you are making some assumptions that may be clouding the discussion. In particular, I think you are assuming far more historical knowledge than most Americans possess.
crazy4lsu
Take your comments on pan-Germanic nationalism, for example. I suspect that 80% or more of Americans have absolutely no idea the Germany did not exist as a nation-state until the late 1800s.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:21 pm to Wtodd
quote:
God
Country (including the Constitution)
Family
Do any of those include thinking your country is better with homogeneous demographics?
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:22 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
LSUconvert
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:29 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
Do any of those include thinking your country is better with homogeneous demographics?
Who do you think we are? Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, Russia, India, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, France, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Mexico, Columbia, Chile, Brazil....?
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 1:30 pm
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:30 pm to 225bred
quote:I am equally entertained and bemused by simplistic binary analysis of nearly every issue.
I love the made up, relative whataboutisms that y’all on the left employ abt everything.
Everything is a spectrum
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:31 pm to SavageOrangeJug
Nationalist had a negative connotation back in the day so that means it’s still bad. Because definitions and context can never change. The Earth is still flat you know...
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:33 pm to Centinel
quote:I am confused by this list.quote:Who do you think we are? Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, Russia, India, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, France, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Mexico, Columbia, Chile, Brazil....?
Do any of those include thinking your country is better with homogeneous demographics?
About half of these nations are reasonably-homogenous ethnically. The other half are not.
What point are you making?
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:36 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
What point are you making?
That almost every country on this planet would prefer their population to be homogeneous.
Some are better at it than others.
I mean it's the entire point of the nation-state system.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 1:38 pm to SavageOrangeJug
I'm a Democratic Nationalist
Posted on 2/26/20 at 2:01 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:It was always about loyalty to das Vaterland or Deutschland. Even to the extent that German borders be expanded to incorporate peripheral areas occupied by, for example, likeminded Sudetens who considered themselves rightful members of the German nation.
German nationalism was specifically pan-Germanic
But of course, as stated, "nation" and related nationalists needn't reference geographical borders at all.
Neither the Aryan Nations nor the Nation of Islam refer to geographic countries. Yet the respective racist members of each, as members of "nations", are referred to as "nationalists". For clarity, as no geographic entity is involved, they are referred to as White Nationalists or Black Nationalists.
Use of "nationalist" in that context does not exclude in any way the premise that Thomas Sowell might consider himself a Nationalist (American) who happens to be Black or even a Black Nationalist.
The left is simply not entitled to commandeer terms or retool the English language into newly contorted meaning. Sorry.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 2:11 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
It was always about loyalty to das Vaterland or Deutschland
It was expansionist in practice and in fact. There is literally no way around this.
quote:
Use of "nationalist" in that context does not exclude in any way the premise that Thomas Sowell might consider himself a Nationalist (American) who happens to be Black or even a Black Nationalist.
Where did I suggest this? I'm talking about historical notions of ethnic nationalism developed after Westphalia. The definition is remarkably specific.
quote:
The left is simply not entitled to commandeer terms or retool the English language into newly contorted meaning. Sorry.
The definition I'm using is older than the use of the term in the popular vernacular. Nationalism as the political idea is specifically referring to its development in a Westphalian context, as in the nation-state system. You seem to think I'm saying something entirely different to what I've argued so far.
I've said elsewhere that my interest in the term is couched specifically in European history. If someone wants to call themselves a nationalist, then by all means they should do it. But if they were to describe what being a nationalist meant, in terms of what values they want to keep, I'd argue that Americans would describe something similar to civic nationalism, while Europeans would describe nationalism as the movement for self determination for groups of people, oriented around language, culture, religion and ethnicity.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 2:14 pm to SavageOrangeJug
yep, the other option is a Globalist. I am a proud nationalist every day.
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