re: Angola Farm Line lawsuit will determine if forced prison labor is unconstitutional

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You fail to define inhumane as anything other than you dont like it.
Your version of "inhumane" is shared with no historical views, no religious interpretations.

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I can use biblical interpretation, if you’d like.

Hebrews 13:3 states: “Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.”

That directive does not carve out exceptions based on guilt, popularity, or social standing. It explicitly instructs people to recognize the humanity of those who are incarcerated and to remain attentive to their mistreatment.

More importantly, the legal standard does not depend on my personal feelings or yours. The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that prison conditions violate the Eighth Amendment when they expose incarcerated people to preventable harm or demonstrate deliberate indifference to their safety and well-being.

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Three hots and a cot is probably a better living situation than many of these would have on the outside. If treated humanely, i.e., water when needed, meals provided during the lunch time, healthcare available if needed, etc., then I don't see a problem with it but I would give them some credit for the work against their sentence (as in some formula for work time reduces length of stay)

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We already know that many people in prisons are mentally ill. You may be right that the structured environment of prison could be better for some of them than whatever their lives looked like before incarceration. I just hate to shrug and say "well prison is probably better than __________ for [inset vulnerable population here]." I think we can do better as a society.
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So to be clear, your position is that involuntary servitude is inhumane for humans in general, but becomes humane when applied to a legally defined subset of humans in certain circumstances

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Involuntarily locking a human being in a 9'x5' cell for the rest of their mortal life is inhumane for humans in general but perfectly acceptable to a legally defined subset of humans in certain circumstances. That's how things work.

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by subjecting them to debasing, inhumane conditions

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We import people to do this type of work. Is it inhumane to them? Should manual labor be illegal?

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That pretty much defines humane treatment.

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Not according to the Supreme Court. Humane treatment is not defined solely by the provision of food, water, and shelter. Courts have repeatedly held that conditions violate the Eighth Amendment when incarcerated people are exposed to preventable harm, unsafe conditions, or deliberate indifference to their health and safety. Survival alone is not the constitutional standard.

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What can't they access? Basic necessities, religion, education, work, skills, religion, etc?

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Access to these things is conditional, limited, and often unavailable in practice. People aren't free to choose what education they want to access or when they want to access it. Many people are excluded because other state-run systems have previously failed them.

For example, that ex-con who was gang raped in a state home? He was functionally illiterate in his 60s after doing 24 years straight. I asked him why he didn't learn to read while he was incarcerated. Louisiana prisons are only required to provide special education to inmates under the age of 25. The vast majority of inmates are 25+ at the time of their incarceration. He was ineligible for general education classes AND special education classes. When the State incarcerates someone and then denies access to basic literacy education, it is difficult to argue that meaningful access to education truly exists.

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Looking it up, it seems prisons are required to offer counseling and such.

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Required on paper does not mean adequate in practice.

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Clinical social workers at the jail see an average of 90 clients per month with diagnosed mental health issues, comprising roughly 20% of all inmates. But that number doesn’t account for all inmates with mental health issues, Mowell noted, since many never received a diagnosis before arriving at the jail.

The Lafayette Parish jail has four therapists and two substance abuse counselors tending to inmates, but the correctional setting isn’t the right one to treat mental health patients, Mental Health Director Sarah McMillan said.

Counselors speak with patients through a narrow slot in the metal cell door, sitting on a small stool in the hallway. As the jail operates around them, deputies and inmates pass through, with heavy security doors slamming loudly. They’re unable to see their patients and vice versa.

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There’s a mental health crisis in Louisiana jails

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Why? A lot of what people find to be inhumane about prison is directly related to how structured an environment it is.

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I haven't seen anything that supports this. Overcrowding, extreme heat, violence, lack of adequate medical care, and exposure to preventable harm are the conditions most frequently cited in litigation and court rulings. These are environmental and operational failures, not simply the existence of rules or structure.

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My idea would be a mini city modeled after regular cities with opportunities for self governance, independent living, work, self improvement. It also has a biblical basis, which is a perk.

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Supervision is a key component of both public safety and rehabilitation. I don’t believe placing people who have demonstrated difficulty functioning within structured society into an environment lacking clear oversight and accountability would produce better outcomes.

Supervision is a key component of public safety. In The Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jane Jacobs argues that while people often associate "quiet suburbs" that lack sidewalk activity as the pinnacles of safety, the "eyes on the streets" of strangers and neighbors outside walking and playing on sidewalks provide an element of supervision and public safety in busy, urban neighborhoods. You never know who might walk down the street or when. If the inmates in your scenario knew that no one would ever come to check on them... I just don't think that would yield positive results.

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This is far more reaching than Angola. There are all kinds of prison industries throughout the United States that rely on inmate labor. The Federal Bureau of Prisons uses UNICOR as their industrial labor to manufacture all kinds of products including office furniture for the entire Federal Government.

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Watch "The Alabama Solution" on HBO for an in depth look at the prison system in the state.

I hear Angola is 10 X worse than any prison in Alabama. If that's true, then that alone should deter any man from committing crimes in Louisiana.

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Why must the penal system be expected to fill in the blanks of mothers, fathers, friends, school systems, etc?

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The overwhelming majority of people who enter prisons will be released back into society. Do you want them to be released as people who have been equipped with at least some of the skills necessary to be productive members of society, or would you rather them be returned to society after spending years deprived of their humanity and treated like an animal provided with only the minimal requirements for survival?

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Why is it assumed the systems "failed" these individuals rather than the individuals failed the system?

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Can you help me understand how a child who was gang raped in a state-run facility failed the institution responsible for his custody and protection?

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The unfortunate example you cited... I am sure some of his peers learned to read and made something of themselves, others did not, he certainly did not. He was 36 upon becoming incarcerated- what did he do with the first 36 years of his life? Or the 18 years he was an adult?

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He was gang raped while in state custody as a child and hospitalized as a result. Childhood sexual violence, particularly when it occurs under state supervision, has well-documented long-term effects on cognitive development, emotional regulation, educational attainment, and life trajectory.

By the time he reached adulthood, his entire existence was already shaped by trauma and systemic failure. He did not enter prison as a fully supported, fully educated adult who simply declined opportunity. He entered prison after moving through multiple systems that had custody over him and failed to protect him or equip him with basic tools for stability.

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I just can't expect it to be the responsibility of the penal system to do for a man what he had no desire to do for himself for 18 years as an adult.

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The same state that forcefully assumed custody of him as a child, failed to protect him from sexual violence, and then later assumed custody of him as an adult cannot be viewed as separate from those outcomes. The effects of severe childhood trauma do not disappear when the assault ends. They negatively impact educational attainment, mental health, and behavior for decades.

The prison system may not be solely responsible for everything that preceded his incarceration. Multiple systems failed him long before prison ever had jurisdiction over his life. But once the State assumes total custody of a person, it assumes responsibility for the conditions of that custody and the opportunities available within it.

Incarceration is one of the few points at which the State has complete and total control over a person’s environment. Whether that environment stabilizes or further destabilizes the individual has direct consequences for public safety when that person is eventually released.

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What if the model had government and supervision from what used to be wardens and guards?

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I would like to see the penal system embrace the Norfolk Prison Colony model. A formal state analysis showed Norfolk’s recidivism rate at roughly 14% to 18% (measured by re-incarceration within one year). During the same periods, maximum-security "punishment" prisons often saw recidivism rates closer to 25% to 30% or higher.

The Norfolk Prison Colony was more like a college than a penitentiary. It emphasized intellectual stimulation and even had a debate team, which famously defeated teams from Harvard and Oxford. Malcolm X was on the debate team during his stay at Norfolk.

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Get off the damn internet, get to work actually (physically) helping these prisoners.

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Malcolm X was on the debate team during his stay at Norfolk.

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And this an endorsement? That the worthless rabble-rouser honed his oratory skills there?

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The people like you who care so vehemently about societal problems that they choose to spend days on a message board irritatingly engaging with others could put their time and efforts to better use by actually helping those incarcerated.

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I’ve actually spent the last several years helping formerly incarcerated people develop skills needed for stability after release.

The discussions here are an extension on my work, not a replacement for it. Public understanding and policy are shaped, in part, by how people think and talk about these issues, especially people who have no direct contact with the system.

Legislative advocacy and direct service are both important. Many people do neither. Some of us choose to do both.