re: Angola Farm Line lawsuit will determine if forced prison labor is unconstitutional

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What is missing? Seriously, What Is Missing??

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Missing? I thought we were discussing recidivism rates and how to reduce them.

Rehabilitation is missing.

Oh I misunderstood. I didn’t realize you were asking me how prisons are inhumane.

Solitary confinement, Forced labor for pennies per hour, Rampant violence, including sexual violence, Medical neglect and delayed treatments, Overcrowding, Complete loss of autonomy…

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Forced labor

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Complete loss of autonomy…

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I wonder what causes that?

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Solitary confinement: This isn't a general condition, but one used in instances of punishment or safety, right?

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would that make it humane?

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Forced labor for pennies per hour: I don't think this is a bad thing.

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Forced labor is humane because you think it’s not a bad thing? Or is it humane for inmates but would be inhumane for any other human? Humanity doesn’t require context.

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This is a tough one... the violence isn't being done to them by the state but rather by other inmates.

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the state is failing to provide a safe environment for the people it is detaining. If any of us was attacked at a grocery store or airport or hotel, the facility would be liable for the harm.

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I'd be fine with building more facilities

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of course. Let’s double down on what we know doesn’t work. Let’s expand it.

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Complete loss of autonomy…: This comes with the territory, it's a feature, not a bug.

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It doesn’t have to. I’ve been in a prison where inmates had the autonomy to walk unescorted to their different programs. One guy was even painting a mural on an interior wall completely unsupervised by any COs, although I’m sure cameras were everywhere.

The facility was not Angola.

You are applying the idea of "humane" to impossible situations.

On one hand you correctly recognize and call out the violence within prisons... but one of the punishments for such behavior is something you call inhumane.

If Billy rapes and shivs Andy in the showers... what would you have done to Billy? Solitary confinement is about the only option in that moment to keep him from harming other prisoners and hopefully to chill him tf out so he behaves once released back to the regular prison population.

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Forced labor is humane because you think it’s not a bad thing? Or is it humane for inmates but would be inhumane for any other human? Humanity doesn’t require context.

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Everyone labors. You labor, your husband labors, your neighbors labor. That's how you afford a roof over your head. It is not inhumane to expect the same from prisoners.

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If any of us was attacked at a grocery store or airport or hotel, the facility would be liable for the harm.

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And... the attacker would likely do time in prison. See, that's how this works. Also, I doubt it'd be Publix's fault if someone attacked me in their store. I could be wrong though.

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I’ve been in a prison where inmates had the autonomy to walk unescorted to their different programs. One guy was even painting a mural on an interior wall completely unsupervised by any COs, although I’m sure cameras were everywhere.

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I'm sure the levels of autonomy are dictated by prisoner behavior and sentence. You can't have ole Billy running a loose raping and shivving people.

You are again, holding two discordant thoughts. One, prisons should be liable for preventing violence and rape. Two, prisoners should have more autonomy to walk about freely.

Those two items aren't going to work together in a prison of violent offenders.

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SallysHuman

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I aways appreciate your posts but you just as well argue with a brick wall as to argue with 4cubbies.

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involuntary servitude is not the same as voluntary employment. Involuntary servitude is inhumane, which is why there is a Constitutional Amendment forbidding it. Making an exception for a subclass of people doesn’t make it humane.

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Seriously?

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Thirteenth Amendment

Section 1

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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1. It's not inhumane.
2. Your circular reasoning breaks as the exact amendment states that it is only via legislation that it is illegal, there is nothing about it being inhumane as a reason.
3. The source for you calling it inhumane literally says "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"
4. Critical thinking and logic would prevent you from saying that, you can ignore critiques of your illogical statements, but that's like walking in the rain saying "it's not raining, it's just people being haters" When people tell you to use an umbrella.

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One of my first encounters with an ex-con was a man in his 60s who was functionally illiterate. He was gang raped in a state-run boys home when he was 11 or 12. The state of course covered it up and the gentleman didn’t get any counseling or mental health support — only stitches in his rear end. He said that experience angered him so much that he hated the world and just wanted revenge. Our penal system traumatizes people and produces smarter, more violent criminals.

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Homosexuality is fundamentally evil and degrades the humanity of those who are in slavery to that sin.

It's no more "harmless" if it's lesbians adopting children.

It's the same degradation of humanity, it's sin that corrupts and corrodes anything it touches.

You see a man so harmed by homosexuality but you blame the government not the sin.

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The State could prevent prison violence. Obviously punishing people after the fact isn’t an effective crime prevention measure.

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The only way to prevent prison violence is to keep all inmates separated. I think we can both agree that solitary confinement for all is not a very humane thing to do.

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involuntary servitude is not the same as voluntary employment. Involuntary servitude is inhumane, which is why there is a Constitutional Amendment forbidding it. Making an exception for a subclass of people doesn’t make it humane.

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We will have to set this aside, I don't see where or how we can come to a consensus.

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Publix would be held responsible if they could reasonably predict the attack. The State can reasonably predict that locking a bunch of men, many with a history of violence, in a room together would result in Violence.

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I agree, instances of violence is predictable in a situation where a lot of historically violent men gather. The only surefire prevention is to isolate each and every one of them. That isn't sustainable nor is it humane.

This next part shows discordance again, I'll quote what I mean...

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You are assuming everyone in prison is waiting for the chance to rape or kill someone. That’s absurd.

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He said that experience angered him so much that he hated the world and just wanted revenge.

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Not every person in prison, not even every violent offender, is necessarily waiting for an opportunity to hurt someone. But many are. Again, the only sure fire prevention is isolation. Neither of us would be "okay" with that as a matter of routine.

I will say, that rather than traditional prisons, I actually favor a different model- a part of every region, set aside and walled off, but very large. A place where those not fit for society can live, work and play together without cells.

They are given industry and ways to self sustain and maintain... supplies afforded to them on a schedule. And left to themselves unsupervised. They would have something like apartments rather than cells. They'd run stores and businesses.

Like a self contained mini-city. But for the unfit. The inhabitants would care for themselves and police themselves. They can form their own government.

There's my idea... what's yours?

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It's not inhumane.

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Because you said so?

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Your circular reasoning breaks as the exact amendment states that it is only via legislation that it is illegal, there is nothing about it being inhumane as a reason.

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legality does not determine morality. Legality and morality are not interchangeable. Homosexuality is legal but you frequently argue that it is immoral, for example.

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Critical thinking and logic would prevent you from saying that, you can ignore critiques of your illogical statements, but that's like walking in the rain saying "it's not raining, it's just people being haters" When people tell you to use an umbrella

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Noted.