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Started By
Message
re: Aereo: How can anyone argue this is anything other than theft?
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:26 am to DR Hops
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:26 am to DR Hops
quote:
Yes they can. Big cable companies pay the networks to air their programming. Why do you think DirecTV and Dish have disputes every few months over pricing?
Because they charge for the signal! And they do it to sell their programs!
Totally different business model! My God would you all quit using different business models to argue a FREE siganal situation!
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:30 am to GeeOH
quote:
NBC, et al, created themselves under the business plan of sending out a FREE signal
Youtube on how to make your own HDTV antenna.
I've got DirecTV but don't pay for HD or local channels. I get full HD from my own antenna. The last time I checked, local stations and HD was about $15/month.
Also, if you don't have a metal roof, you can put the antenna in your attic and it works just as good as if it was on the outside.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:35 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Simple test. Would the customer continue to pay for the antenna if the content wasn't there?
The content is free! And it is the customer's antenna! What don't you understand?
Do you continue paying a boat storage fee, even if the lake dries up?
They sell the antenna to you, then you pay them for servicing it. Yes, you agree they will service your antenna, no matter what you decide to send thru it. Don't you find it amazing radio stations aren't arguing? You know why? Because they want as many people as possible receiving their FREE signal...exactly like the business model of tv.
Do you understand tv sells advertising for money. They want to show the product is being marketed to "x" million homes....not just homes with pay cable! They use all homes that are covered by their FREE signal.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:38 am to GeeOH
The television stations, and networks broadcast their signal for reception by anyone who has the appropriate antenna. In the 1970's people bought satellite dishes to receive the network signals as they bounced off satellites. The networks responded by encrypting their signals to protect their content. To this day it is illegal to access encrypted content without payment.
This is the same type of situation. The local stations continue to broadcast their signal for local reception. Aereo does nothing more than receive those unencrypted signals and then convert the signals to another frequency for redistribution to specific devices with antennae for the redistribution frequency within a household.
If the local stations are concerned about protecting their content, then they should do what the networks did over 30 years ago and encrypt their signals to restrict access.
This is the same type of situation. The local stations continue to broadcast their signal for local reception. Aereo does nothing more than receive those unencrypted signals and then convert the signals to another frequency for redistribution to specific devices with antennae for the redistribution frequency within a household.
If the local stations are concerned about protecting their content, then they should do what the networks did over 30 years ago and encrypt their signals to restrict access.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:45 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
The networks responded by encrypting their signals to protect their content.
I remember those days when the 8' satellite dishes came out. You could get the raw ABC/NBC/CBS feeds the network sent out to its affiliates. You saw news anchors picking their nose and playing grabass during commercial breaks. THAT's why the major networks encrypted.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:06 am to a want
"But they're charging for the rebroadcast!"
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I don't think it's so clear. The networks have the right to a chunk of the spectrum to broadcast their signals, but in return, I believe their broadcasts have to be free. of course, this all started long ago when the technology was vastly different, but if you think of this in terms of the chip (being rented) functioning like the old antennas that used to sprout from all of the houses when I was a kid, it starts not to look like a "rebroadcast" at all. What if the technology gets to the point where you don't even need the relay from the roof, just the chip/antenna in the computer? Where would the "re" in "rebroadcast" be then?
A fascinating example of just how confusing government regulation can get as technology changes.
The funny thing is that we have too damn many laws, generally, but in a difficult, emerging area where new laws might actually make sense, we don't get them.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I don't think it's so clear. The networks have the right to a chunk of the spectrum to broadcast their signals, but in return, I believe their broadcasts have to be free. of course, this all started long ago when the technology was vastly different, but if you think of this in terms of the chip (being rented) functioning like the old antennas that used to sprout from all of the houses when I was a kid, it starts not to look like a "rebroadcast" at all. What if the technology gets to the point where you don't even need the relay from the roof, just the chip/antenna in the computer? Where would the "re" in "rebroadcast" be then?
A fascinating example of just how confusing government regulation can get as technology changes.
The funny thing is that we have too damn many laws, generally, but in a difficult, emerging area where new laws might actually make sense, we don't get them.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:44 am to N.O. via West-Cal
I always assumed the business model for the networks was "broadcast widely for free and fill it with ads!" Sort of like all the ads we see on websites and free apps in the app store (with ads). The revenue would be generated by the ads, which would make this situation more profitable to the networks...but I guess would make it less profitable to the broadcaster as one stream could be used to provide service for a wide area with little signal loss. In that case I'd agree the broadcaster should encrypt the signals and if Aereo doesn't like that then they should participate in competitive business practices like broadcasting on their own, rather than just acting as a repeater.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:52 am to GeeOH
quote:You didn't answer the question. Would they customers pay for "antanna maintenance" if there was no content? Yes or no?
The content is free! And it is the customer's antenna! What don't you understand?
Do you continue paying a boat storage fee, even if the lake dries up?
They sell the antenna to you, then you pay them for servicing it. Yes, you agree they will service your antenna, no matter what you decide to send thru it.
quote:I do. Rebroadcast is long settled law. Aereo has no right to translate their programming. Look at the suits over tape recording if live broadcasts.
Don't you find it amazing radio stations aren't arguing? You know why?
quote:Nope. Perceived financial benefit does not justify copyright violation. This is long ago settled law.
Because they want as many people as possible receiving their FREE signal...exactly like the business model of tv.
Do you understand tv sells advertising for money. They want to show the product is being marketed to "x" million homes....not just homes with pay cable! They use all homes that are covered by their FREE signal.
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 10:55 am
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:56 am to DR Hops
quote:
They cant show how they were financially harmed by someone accessing their FREE content.
in this case the content is free.
quote:
Big cable companies pay the networks to air their programming. Why do you think DirecTV and Dish have disputes every few months over pricing? The provider, directv, doesn't want to pay TBS, for example, and thus asks it's customers to contact tbs to lower it's price, because that, in effect, will raise the subscriber's price.
Here there is a contract. When you broadcast for FREE, OPENLY over the air...you have entered into no such agreement and cannot show "harm"
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:58 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
. Aereo has no right to translate their programming.
I didnt see where Aereo was doing anything with actual transmission. They manufacture the antennae...but the antennaes themselves are then sold and privately owned.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:58 am to CptBengal
quote:Actually, it's irrelevant. For copyright law, you do not have to show damages for statutory enforcement.
Here there is a contract. When you broadcast for FREE, OPENLY over the air...you have entered into no such agreement and cannot show "harm"
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:59 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
For copyright law, you do not have to show damages for statutory enforcement.
But I thought copyright law provides for special exemptions of the public commons on free broadcasts to end level users?
ETA:
quote:
The Supreme Court case may hinge largely on the definition of a public performance in copyright law. U.S. copyright law defines a public performance as, “to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered.”
I'm not a substantial number of people....
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 11:03 am
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:03 am to CptBengal
This has already been upheld for Aereo in lower courts and it is now headed to the Supreme Court.
If the USSC upholds for Aereo, then Aereo will be an awesome business model. If not, Aereo ceases to exist. The CEO has already said there is no Plan B.
If the USSC upholds for Aereo, then Aereo will be an awesome business model. If not, Aereo ceases to exist. The CEO has already said there is no Plan B.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:05 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Rebroadcasting for profit is not one of them.
they are not charging for the rebroadcast. They charge for service of the equipment.
subtle, but interesting legal difference.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:07 am to CptBengal
quote:So you believe people would buy an pay for "maintenance" if the content on the equipment didn't exist? If so, why would Aereo bother with it? They should just drop the programming. Problem solved.
they are not charging for the rebroadcast. They charge for service of the equipment.
subtle, but interesting legal difference.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:09 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
So you believe people would buy an pay for "maintenance" if the content on the equipment didn't exist?
I pay for internet access with no gaurantee of the content therein.
And the content to which you refer is freely and openly broadcast for end users, provided as I quoted earlier, that it is for a private viewing of a small number of family and friends...and not a substantial number of people.
Since each user has there own antennae, and has their own viewing, likely not in open air parks with tens to hundreds of viewers...I imagine the dinosaur conglomerate media are fricked here.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:12 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
This is the same type of situation. The local stations continue to broadcast their signal for local reception. Aereo does nothing more than receive those unencrypted signals and then convert the signals to another frequency for redistribution to specific devices with antennae for the redistribution frequency within a household.
If it only involved LOCAL stations re-broadcasting network content that is paid for by the local station, then Aereo should win.
From the sound of it, though, this Aereo antenna is able to process network feeds. Those are NOT set up to be free for local consumption.
Example: right now I pay ABC Cable Company $100 a month for 250 channels of content. A good percentage of that $100 dollars is distributed to the various networks I have chosen to pay for.
If I go out and get this Aereo thing, and only pay Aereo $8 a month for the same programming, then the networks are being harmed because no payment for their content is being made by Aereo for the rights to make the content accessible to the public.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:12 am to a want
quote:No, they are charging for the antenna and other gear that allow me to receive a free signal and redisplay it on supported devices.
But they're charging for the rebroadcast!
That's a valuable service which does not infringe on copyrights of the original FREE broadcasts.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 11:13 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
You didn't answer the question. Would they customers pay for "antanna maintenance" if there was no content? Yes or no?
Yes I did...Yes...the same way you would be contractually obligated to pay for a boat storage fee even if the free lake were to dry up.
You can't see the forest thru the trees....the signal is FREE. There will never NOT be a free signal. Would a customer go to radio shack and buy an antenna if there were no signal? The signal is fair game, its free!
Let me help you grasp something.....let's say I start installing those 50 ft antenna AT YOUR HOUSE for free, the catch is you have to pay me $5/month to come by and make sure it's safe and working properly, if not I had to fix it free of charge to you. It is old school and has a wire that runs down the antenna and thru a hole drilled in your house and to your tv. Would this be ok with you? Absolutely you would take that deal if you wanted the free tv signal being broadcast! Now, let's say I figured a way not to have to drill thru a wall in your house. I could just put a tiny antenna inside that used the free signal from the 50 ft antenna and it would travel thru your house walls/roof and make it to the TV with no loss of quality. That would still be ok with you right?
SO now your argument would have to be that I keep my antenna at a location too far from my house and the service guy in town should now have to pay the tv companies for servicing an antenna "too far" from my house that's giving me my free signal?
quote:
I do. Rebroadcast is long settled law. Aereo has no right to translate their programming. Look at the suits over tape recording if live broadcasts.
Aereo IS NOT rebroadcasting the signal, the antennna would be the consumers! Not Aereo's! They created a business model where the CONSUMER owns the antenna! See the difference?
quote:
Nope. Perceived financial benefit does not justify copyright violation. This is long ago settled law.
They aren't copyrighting, they are only servicing my antenna for me. MY ANTENNA. I don't know how else to explain the difference in your thinking and what is happening. Yoour thinking assumes the company owns the antenna, it doesn't!
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 11:47 am
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