re: 210 illegals have committed murder since 2020. Spare us the crying over two people in MN

Splitting hairs between civil and criminal violations isn’t a waste of time, it’s literally how the rule of law works. Due process exists because not all violations are the same. If “someone is here who shouldn’t be” is enough by itself, then you’re arguing that enforcement doesn’t need legal boundaries, just discretion. That’s a dangerous standard.

We don’t let police decide guilt on the spot, invent penalties, or skip due process for “less severe” violations just because enforcement would be easier. Speeding is a civil offense too. We don’t say, “Well, you broke a rule, so the officer can punish you however they see fit.” We issue a citation, follow procedures, and impose proportionate consequences.

Law enforcement without distinctions, limits, or process isn’t enforcement, it’s arbitrary power. You can support enforcement and insist it follow the law as written.

Careful now. Who are the highest rate offenders?

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They won’t and can’t have due process unless they are caught.

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Wrong. It would surprise you how many have already had due process and were denied legal status, but have stayed anyway.

I mean, there was the whole sob story over the NOLA grandmother, who was ordered to leave 30+ years ago and never did. They finally deported her this year.

More shite like that happens than we care to admit.

Also, ICE does not just chase people willy nilly. The overwhelming majority have warrants issued from past due process events.

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Wrong. It would surprise you how many have already had due process and were denied legal status, but have stayed anyway.

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That’s not my argument. His argument is ICE is finding ever illegal and simply deporting them.

My argument is, if you want due process for illegals. They have to be caught first and then plea their case. Without being caught and give an opportunity to plea their case. No due process can be had. If they have removal orders, send them packing. Which he already granted earlier.

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If undocumented immigrants offend at lower rates than citizens

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They don't, so everything else you said is irrelevant. According to the Bureau of Prisons, illegals make up ~14% of the federal prison population. Based on data from Pew, illegals are ~4% of the US population representing 14 million people who shouldn't be here. I think it's more than that, so let's double it just to be safe.

Since 14 > 8, illegals are overrepresented in the federal prison system. That means that illegals commit more crimes than citizens. Math doesn't lie like people do.

That’s not how the data works at all, and this is a classic misuse of statistics. Federal prison population is not a proxy for overall crime rates. The federal system disproportionately incarcerates non-citizens because some immigration offenses themselves are federal crimes. Illegal entry, illegal reentry, and related offenses are prosecuted federally and, by definition, cannot be committed by citizens.

That’s also an important distinction you’re blurring. Being undocumented is a civil status issue. Illegal entry or reentry is a specific criminal offense. Counting people incarcerated for those crimes and then claiming it proves higher general criminality is conflating status with behavior. Local PD handles the vast majority of violent and property crime, and those crimes are overwhelmingly prosecuted at the state and local level, not federal. When you look at state and local arrest and conviction data, undocumented immigrants consistently offend at lower rates than native-born citizens.

So yes, 14 percent of the federal prison population tells us the federal government aggressively prosecutes immigration crimes (which I have been told for years is not the case). It does not tell us undocumented immigrants commit more violent or property crime. Math doesn’t lie, but bad assumptions absolutely do. If you want to argue higher crime rates, show state or local per-capita data for violent offenses, not immigration prosecutions baked into federal statistics.

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That’s not how the data works at all, and this is a classic misuse of statistics. Federal prison population is not a proxy for overall crime rates. The federal system disproportionately incarcerates non-citizens because some immigration offenses themselves are federal crimes. Illegal entry, illegal reentry, and related offenses are prosecuted federally and, by definition, cannot be committed by citizens.

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So in summary....

1) you claim that illegals commit crimes at lower rates than Americans.

2) you are shown that the entry into the country by nefarious means is a crime in itself and using that, illegals are in fact committing more crimes, by far, than Americans.

3) you pick up the goalposts and run to another location with it by saying "those laws shouldn't count toward the total".

4) you then claim someone else is "blurring" the issue.

5) I'm STILL waiting on the list of laws I'm exempted from following. Any that I can commit that an illegal couldnt? We will start from there.

You only list violent and property crime? We throwing out white collar crime in the statistics as well? Because you can throw out 7% to 10% of the federal prison population of Americans based on that. How is our statistics looking after just that? You wanna throw out counting some convictions and narrow the scope. Let's narrow the scope.

No one is moving goalposts. You’re changing what “crime rate” means mid-argument. When people talk about crime rates in the context of public safety and burden on local communities, they are talking about violent, property, and public-order crimes handled by local and state law enforcement. That’s what affects local PD workload, victimization, and community safety.

Illegal entry and illegal reentry are federal immigration offenses. They are real crimes, but they are status based and jurisdiction specific, and they are enforced almost entirely by the federal government. Counting those offenses to claim higher overall criminality is fine if your argument is “the federal government prosecutes immigration violations,” but it does not support the claim that undocumented immigrants commit more violent or property crime than citizens. Those are different questions.

I’m not saying those laws “don’t count.” I’m saying they don’t answer the question you’re pretending they answer. You’re using immigration enforcement data to make claims about general criminal behavior. That’s the category error.

As for your exemption question, you’re still missing the point. Citizens and non-citizens are subject to different legal regimes. Citizens cannot commit immigration status offenses at all. Non-citizens can. That alone guarantees overrepresentation in federal prison stats regardless of behavior in every other category. That’s not favoritism, it’s jurisdiction.

And no, narrowing to violent and property crime isn’t cheating. That’s exactly how we evaluate public safety risk and where enforcement resources reduce the most harm. If you want to expand the scope, fine, but then you have to compare like with like using per-capita state and local conviction data, not federal incarceration numbers dominated by immigration offenses.

If your claim is “undocumented immigrants commit more violent or property crime per capita than citizens,” show that data. Federal prison math doesn’t get you there.

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If your claim is “undocumented immigrants commit more violent or property crime per capita than citizens,” show that data. Federal prison math doesn’t get you there.

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Well, help us out here.

How many prisoners are in the federal system for murder? And how many are illegal immigrants?

This is just what we know. States like Mass, NY PA, IL are not collecting this data.