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Supreme Court rules against 'Straw Purchasers' of Guns
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:36 pm
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:36 pm
quote:
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court dealt a rare blow to the gun lobby Monday by ruling that purchasers must report when they are buying firearms for other people.
The 5-4 decision upheld two lower courts that had ruled against so-called straw purchasers, even though the justices acknowledged that Congress left loopholes in gun control laws passed in the 1960s and 1990s.
For gun purchasers to be allowed to buy from licensed dealers without reporting the actual final owners of the firearms, the justices said, would make little sense.
"Putting true numbskulls to one side, anyone purchasing a gun for criminal purposes would avoid leaving a paper trail by the simple expedient of hiring a straw," Justice Elena Kagan wrote for the slim majority.
Kagan, a New Yorker who acknowledged during her 2010 confirmation hearings that she was not very familiar with guns, was opposed by four conservative justices, led by Justice Antonin Scalia — who famously has taken her hunting on several occasions.
"No piece of information is more important under federal firearms law than the identity of a gun's purchaser — the person who acquires a gun as a result of a transaction with a licensed dealer," Kagan said.
During oral arguments in the case in January, she had noted that without such a finding, "it does not matter whether the ultimate transferee was Al Capone or somebody else."
quote:
Scalia's dissent for the court's conservatives — not including Justice Anthony Kennedy, who provided the swing vote — was scathing.
"The court makes it a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner," he said. "Whether or not that is a sensible result, the statutes Congress enacted do not support it."
The straw purchaser in the case was a former Virginia police officer who bought a Glock 19 handgun for his uncle in Pennsylvania. Both were legal gun owners. But the purchaser, Bruce James Abramski, filled out a federal form indicating that he was the "actual buyer" of the firearm.
His attorney, Richard Dietz, argued that a compromise reached in Congress decades ago was meant to focus only on the initial buyer. Even if it did intend to identify the ultimate purchaser, he said, Abramski didn't violate the law because his uncle was licensed to own guns.
LINK
This should remind everybody that our 2nd amendment rights are literally hanging on by a thread and being bitterly contested. This was only a 5-4 vote.
This post was edited on 6/16/14 at 6:51 pm

Posted on 6/16/14 at 8:43 pm to boosiebadazz
The reason gun ownership advocates are so easy to get a rise out of is because they understand the end game for those opposed to guns is the outright banning of private ownership.
Compromise is not wise because there is no point at which those opposed to private ownership will say "OK. Good enough." Every compromise gun owners make is just a slow walk to an outright ban.
I've heard it compared to smokers. Smokers were smoking in the restaurant and at some point were asked if they minded sitting in their own section. They said "Sure." Then they were asked to sit out on the patio and they said "Sure." Then they were asked to not smoke in the patio section and to go completely outside to smoke. They said "Sure." Then they were told they couldn't smoke within 30 feet of the entrance. By saying "Sure" they went from their table in the restaurant to halfway down the street in 4 steps.
This is why gun owners don't mind being called reactionary for being upset about what seems to be reasonable compromise. They understand the goals and methods of those that are asking them to compromise.
Compromise is not wise because there is no point at which those opposed to private ownership will say "OK. Good enough." Every compromise gun owners make is just a slow walk to an outright ban.
I've heard it compared to smokers. Smokers were smoking in the restaurant and at some point were asked if they minded sitting in their own section. They said "Sure." Then they were asked to sit out on the patio and they said "Sure." Then they were asked to not smoke in the patio section and to go completely outside to smoke. They said "Sure." Then they were told they couldn't smoke within 30 feet of the entrance. By saying "Sure" they went from their table in the restaurant to halfway down the street in 4 steps.
This is why gun owners don't mind being called reactionary for being upset about what seems to be reasonable compromise. They understand the goals and methods of those that are asking them to compromise.
All Replies (123)
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:45 pm to Sentrius
quote:
This should remind everybody that our 2nd amendment rights are literally hanging on by a thread and being bitterly contested. This was only a 5-4 vote.
The opponents of the 2nd Amendment never rest, despite the protestations of some misguided souls on this board.
I need to read more about the decision before commenting further.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:46 pm to Sentrius
Let us all remember come 2016 that if Hillary Clinton, or worse, gets to appoint one or more Supreme Court Justices that tis goes the other way.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:47 pm to CC
quote:I think you misread the OP's meaning.
if Hillary Clinton, or worse, gets to appoint one or more Supreme Court Justices that tis goes the other way.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:48 pm to Sentrius
Scalia is right on with this:
quote:
"The court makes it a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner," he said. "Whether or not that is a sensible result, the statutes Congress enacted do not support it."
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:50 pm to weagle99
More brilliance from Scalia:
quote:
But Scalia ridiculed the majority's assertion that under federal firearms laws, the uncle -- not Abramski — was the true purchaser of the gun. "If I give my son $10 and tell him to pick up milk and eggs at the store, no English speaker would say that the store 'sells' the milk and eggs to me," he said.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:56 pm to Sentrius
So if I wanted to buy a gun and give it to my kid, these guys think I should have my kid go through the background check process? Can I sell it to someone for $1 dollar instead of giving it to them to scoot around the rules? Is this the beginning of the end of private gun sales?
Posted on 6/16/14 at 6:58 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
Can I sell it to someone for $1 dollar instead of giving it to them to scoot around the rules?
If private sales are legal in your state I don't see why not.
quote:
s this the beginning of the end of private gun sales?
That is the current endgame for many in the gun control movement.
BACKGROUND CHECKS WERE NOT PROMOTED BY ANTIGUN GROUPS TO REDUCE CRIME.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:14 pm to Sentrius
Serious question.... How can Righties claim that laws against straw purchases are violations of the 2nd Amendment on one hand, then blame the Obama administration for the deaths of those killed by guns purchased in fast and furious, an ATF operation which allowed illegal straw purchases?
In F&F you had the DOJ tell the ATF to allow the straw purchase of guns. Those straw purchases were illegal. Those purchases resulted in those guns being brought into Mexico killing people. Righties are furious, forgetting their mantra that gun laws don't work and criminals will get guns and that guns don't kill people, people kill people, and want Holders head for this. Yet they want to do away with the very laws they attack Holder for not enforcing.
Do you not see the inconsistency there? I mean if you got your way, there would be nothing stopping many many many more straw purchases with results far worse than F&F.
What am I missing here?
In F&F you had the DOJ tell the ATF to allow the straw purchase of guns. Those straw purchases were illegal. Those purchases resulted in those guns being brought into Mexico killing people. Righties are furious, forgetting their mantra that gun laws don't work and criminals will get guns and that guns don't kill people, people kill people, and want Holders head for this. Yet they want to do away with the very laws they attack Holder for not enforcing.
Do you not see the inconsistency there? I mean if you got your way, there would be nothing stopping many many many more straw purchases with results far worse than F&F.
What am I missing here?
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:16 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:Wow! That's just wrong!
an ATF operation which allowed illegal straw purchases?
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:16 pm to Sentrius
quote:This seems like a wise, sane, prudent decision to me.
Supreme Court rules against 'Straw Purchasers' of Guns
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:19 pm to Sentrius
Amazing how the words "shall not be infringed" are just forgotten. Just words written on a paper to some I guess.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:26 pm to weagle99
You give me Federally legal pot and you can have your guns.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:28 pm to genuineLSUtiger
quote:
You give me Federally legal pot and you can have your guns.
We have guns now.
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:32 pm to LSURussian
Ok Russian, tell me how CBS and I are wrong:
LINK
quote:
A number of Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) gun dealers in the Phoenix area routinely contacted ATF when they noticed suspicious customers attempting purchases; for example, someone ordering large numbers of AK-47 variant rifles and other so-called "weapons of choice" used by the Mexican drug cartels, and paying with large sums of cash brought in a paper bag. But starting in fall 2009, instead of stopping the transactions or questioning the customers, ATF often encouraged select gun dealers to go ahead and complete suspicious sales. ATF further asked the gun dealers to continue to cooperate by selling to the suspicious customers repeatedly, and providing ATF with names and weapons' serial numbers. Several gun dealers expressed concerns to ATF: they worried if they cooperated in selling guns to suspected criminals, they would later be unfairly blamed or even prosecuted, and that some of the weapons might be used one day to murder federal agents.
LINK
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:35 pm to genuineLSUtiger
quote:
You give me Federally legal pot and you can have your guns.
Can I have my guns now?
Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:35 pm to Vegas Bengal
So an individual buying a gun as a gift for his relative is EXACTLY the same thing as the ATF selling numerous automatic weapons to drug cartel murderers and then losing track of the murderers and the guns?
Okay, I think I understand your logic now.....

Okay, I think I understand your logic now.....

Posted on 6/16/14 at 7:37 pm to Sentrius
This decision proves guns aren't truly private property.
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