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Why are Phil Rizzuto & Pee Wee Reese in the HoF and Alvin Dark not?
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:22 pm
These three players are roughly mirrors of one another statistically.
Dark: Career in 14 seasons, .289/.333/.411, 2,089 hits, 1,064 runs, 757 RBI, 98 OPS+
162 game avg: 185 hits, 94 runs, 67 RBI
Rizzuto: Career in 13 seasons, .273/.351/.355, 1,588 hits, 877 runs, 563 RBI, 93 OPS+
162 avg: 155 hits, 86 runs, 55 rbi
Reese: Career in 16 seasons, .269/.366/.377, 2,170 hits, 1,338 runs, 885 RBI, 232 SBs, 8 OPS+
162 game avg: 162 hits, 100 runs, 66 RBI
Reese is clearly the superior base stealer as neither Dark nor Rizzuto topped 200 career SB (Dark not even 100) and on-base man.
Rizzuto and Reese are often praised for their fielding, but RF/9 ranks all three in the same neighborhood, and while Dark's fld% (a horrible stat anyhow) is the lowest, it's not significantly lower (Rizzuto is like 97th all time, Reese 130ish and Dark 150ish).
To me, you have three SS who played similarly capable, though not outstanding defense, and one of which was clearly superior with his bat. While his OBP may have lacked, his uptick in SLG helps cover that distance.
It seems to me Rizzuto made the hall based on his team more than his actual play, but I'm not all that well versed in 40s and 50s ball players.
Dark: Career in 14 seasons, .289/.333/.411, 2,089 hits, 1,064 runs, 757 RBI, 98 OPS+
162 game avg: 185 hits, 94 runs, 67 RBI
Rizzuto: Career in 13 seasons, .273/.351/.355, 1,588 hits, 877 runs, 563 RBI, 93 OPS+
162 avg: 155 hits, 86 runs, 55 rbi
Reese: Career in 16 seasons, .269/.366/.377, 2,170 hits, 1,338 runs, 885 RBI, 232 SBs, 8 OPS+
162 game avg: 162 hits, 100 runs, 66 RBI
Reese is clearly the superior base stealer as neither Dark nor Rizzuto topped 200 career SB (Dark not even 100) and on-base man.
Rizzuto and Reese are often praised for their fielding, but RF/9 ranks all three in the same neighborhood, and while Dark's fld% (a horrible stat anyhow) is the lowest, it's not significantly lower (Rizzuto is like 97th all time, Reese 130ish and Dark 150ish).
To me, you have three SS who played similarly capable, though not outstanding defense, and one of which was clearly superior with his bat. While his OBP may have lacked, his uptick in SLG helps cover that distance.
It seems to me Rizzuto made the hall based on his team more than his actual play, but I'm not all that well versed in 40s and 50s ball players.
5
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:26 pm to OBUDan
Waving Willy's fault
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:26 pm to OBUDan
Additionally if you wanted to point to intangibles, you'd have to note that Dark was the captain of the Giants teams that were so successful, including the '54 WS winner. To this day, Willie Mays calls him "Cap."
He was also the man that started the famous "Coogan's Bluff Miracle."
He was also the man that started the famous "Coogan's Bluff Miracle."
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:35 pm to OBUDan
You've been diving into these past baseball players alot here lately. 
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:37 pm to OBUDan
New York Yankees.
Brooklyn (New York) Dodgers.
QED.
Brooklyn (New York) Dodgers.
QED.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:37 pm to Prominentwon
I've been watching Ken Burns Baseball, reading Robert Creamer's bio on Babe and doing a small project with a buddy writing bios for former, lesser known players.
So I'm digesting a lot of info. lately.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:40 pm to beatbammer
quote:
New York Yankees.
Brooklyn (New York) Dodgers.
Well, that was my initial thought as well, but Dark's finest years were played for the Giants, when they were still in NY, and he's most known for his time there.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:44 pm to OBUDan
You know, Dan, I have to agree with you on this (that's twice in one day!)...Based on the numbers Dark should be in. Maybe he'll be a Veterans guy...or has that already passed?
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:45 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Robert Creamer's bio on Babe
Any good?
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:49 pm to Prominentwon
quote:
Any good?
I'm halfway through, but I'd say it's both good and bad.
Creamer is a great, great baseball fan. And so he writes with a lot of love (both of the game and for Babe himself). Though, he's able to address his full character, unlike a lot of other works from earlier generations which just fluffed him up as the greatest thing ever.
When he sticks to telling stories/legends, etc. it's really interesting. BUT, he sometimes veers into these pages long play-by-play recaps of game after game after game. For an important game or two, I'd understand. But after a while, I just don't really care what Babe Ruth did in a some random regular season game in 1917.
I wish he would hit the high points there a little more.
But, he does openly say that if you are not a baseball nut to feel free to skip past those sections, as you will find them cumbersome. So at least he's honest.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:52 pm to BallHawk
quote:
You know, Dan, I have to agree with you on this (that's twice in one day!)...Based on the numbers Dark should be in. Maybe he'll be a Veterans guy...or has that already passed?
I'm honestly not that fluent on the HoF processes.
Maybe if Baloo shows up, he could answer you better.
I would think he could still get in with the Veteran's committee. He's actually 90 right now, and the oldest living manager of a World Series winner.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:58 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Phil Rizzuto & Pee Wee Reese in the HoF
winning in New York
quote:
Alvin Dark not?
As the manager of the Giants,
"because we have so many Negro and Spanish-speaking ball players on this team. They are just not able to perform up to the white ball players when it comes to mental alertness. You can't make most Negro and Spanish players have the pride in their team that you can get from white players."
Posted on 2/22/12 at 4:59 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
winning in New York
... also done by Dark..
quote:
As the manager of the Giants,
"because we have so many Negro and Spanish-speaking ball players on this team. They are just not able to perform up to the white ball players when it comes to mental alertness. You can't make most Negro and Spanish players have the pride in their team that you can get from white players."
A) There are plenty of guys in the Hall who said much worse.
B) Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson both came to his defense on this issue, and it's widely stated he was grossly misquoted.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 5:06 pm to OBUDan
I went to LSU, lived on a street named after him, I know his accomplishments. You asked for a the answer to the question- because in the voters mind he was the anti-Pee Wee Reese.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 5:09 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
You asked for a the answer to the question- because in the voters mind he was the anti-Pee Wee Reese.
I was merely offering a rebuttal to your arguments.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 5:23 pm to OBUDan
quote:
Why are Phil Rizzuto & Pee Wee Reese in the HoF and Alvin Dark not?
Baseball Hall of Fame hates LSU
Posted on 2/22/12 at 5:39 pm to OBUDan
Rizzuto is in because of a concerted media campaign to get him in. It was one of the most well-organizaed campaigns in HOF history. Using Rizzo as a standard for future indicutions is a mistake, as he was a very weak candidate. I'm actually shocked Mattingly isn't in the Hall because no one crams in their marginal players to the Hall better than the Yankees.
Reese is in because of the Jackie Robinson halo effect. I'm not as familiar with his election, mainly because Rizzo's is that famous. Reese never got 50% of the ballot and was a Vet Selection.
Due to the reorg of the HOF, the Vet Committee won't be elected anyone for awhile. The voting is too hard. That door is currently shut.
Alvin Dark is not getting in for the exact reason mentioned -- he is viewed by the baseball establishment as a Southern racist, who hated Jackie Robinson. Hating Jackie is an unrecoverable sin (though, he hated Jackie because he was a Giant -- Dark loved Willie Mays). Dark was also manager of some great A's teams, which he doesn't get enough credit for. He was winning World Series in the 1970s.
Reese is in because of the Jackie Robinson halo effect. I'm not as familiar with his election, mainly because Rizzo's is that famous. Reese never got 50% of the ballot and was a Vet Selection.
Due to the reorg of the HOF, the Vet Committee won't be elected anyone for awhile. The voting is too hard. That door is currently shut.
Alvin Dark is not getting in for the exact reason mentioned -- he is viewed by the baseball establishment as a Southern racist, who hated Jackie Robinson. Hating Jackie is an unrecoverable sin (though, he hated Jackie because he was a Giant -- Dark loved Willie Mays). Dark was also manager of some great A's teams, which he doesn't get enough credit for. He was winning World Series in the 1970s.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 5:54 pm to Baloo
quote:
Rizzuto is in because of a concerted media campaign to get him in. It was one of the most well-organizaed campaigns in HOF history. Using Rizzo as a standard for future indicutions is a mistake, as he was a very weak candidate. I'm actually shocked Mattingly isn't in the Hall because no one crams in their marginal players to the Hall better than the Yankees.
Figured something like this was the case. He strikes me as a better image than ball player.
quote:
Alvin Dark is not getting in for the exact reason mentioned -- he is viewed by the baseball establishment as a Southern racist, who hated Jackie Robinson. Hating Jackie is an unrecoverable sin (though, he hated Jackie because he was a Giant -- Dark loved Willie Mays). Dark was also manager of some great A's teams, which he doesn't get enough credit for. He was winning World Series in the 1970s.
This I Don't understand because both Jackie and Willie defended him. Hell he has a documented friendship with Jackie off the field.
Secondly, as a manager, he is credited with rearranging the locker room to encourage the integration between the blacks and whites.
The notion that he was a racist is unfounded to me.
And you are right, he was a very good manager.
Posted on 2/22/12 at 6:19 pm to OBUDan
Maybe he won't get in from his playing days but don't you think he warrants consideration based solely on his managerial resume?
Posted on 2/22/12 at 9:37 pm to BallHawk
I think Dark merits consideration solely as a manager, but it's borderline. But combined? Only Joe Torre has a better player/manager case in the past 50 years.
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to indict Dark. It's not coming out nowhere, though the Giants were one of the most quickly integrated teams. And the 70s A's were pretty diverse... though they all hated Dark because, well, those guys hated everyone. Can you imagine how miserable their locker room was? In their defense, you'd be a bitter employee too if you had to play for Chuck Finley, who really was a miserable bastard.
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to indict Dark. It's not coming out nowhere, though the Giants were one of the most quickly integrated teams. And the 70s A's were pretty diverse... though they all hated Dark because, well, those guys hated everyone. Can you imagine how miserable their locker room was? In their defense, you'd be a bitter employee too if you had to play for Chuck Finley, who really was a miserable bastard.
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