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Started By
Message
re: Why are hollowpoints banned for use in war?
Posted on 3/11/13 at 5:22 pm to JAB528
Posted on 3/11/13 at 5:22 pm to JAB528
quote:
I see the point you were trying to make now.
Personally I think the point is pretty hollow.................................
As to Brass and Wiltz's pissing match, even if the Sierra Matchking is only an "open-tipped" round, I feel the expanding capabilities of an open tip round are greater than that of an FMJ round.
I still don't buy that the military stocks Winchester SXT (an improved "Black Talon") in their handgun ammunition though.
EDIT: As to the point at hand (pun intended :nana:), I think if our enemies of war are using all means necessary to kill us with efficiency that we should do. Us following this rule puts us at an extreme disadvantage.
This post was edited on 3/11/13 at 5:31 pm
0
Posted on 3/11/13 at 5:24 pm to brass2mouth
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sixteen years after Parks issued his memo, an Army unit in Iraq temporarily banned the open-tip M118 long-range used by snipers after a JAG officer mistook it for hollow-tip ammunition, according to a 2006 Washington Times report. The decision was overturned when other Army officials were alerted.
This is VERY confusing..... I can see why the JAG officer was confused since even Sierra, the bullet's manufacturer, labels the bullet in question (Sierra MatchKing, 168 gr, 30 caliber bullet, stock #2200) as a "hollow point." No where on their website do they refer to the construcion of their MatchKing bullets as anything except "hollow point."
LINK
LINK
Sounds like the armed services decided to label the bullet they use as an "open tip" bullet while the maker has always called it, and all MatchKing bullets, a "hollow point."
Posted on 3/11/13 at 6:34 pm to TigerOnThe Hill
The difference is that the Match Kings don't have the hollow going down into the lead core in order to flatten it out faster. It's designed to create a perfect parabola across the nose of the bullet via aerodynamics of a pocket of non moving air vs a possibly deformed solid nose.
I've got russian FMJ for 7.62x39 that's the same way. These are not 'hollow points' in the terms of what is prohibited.
I've got russian FMJ for 7.62x39 that's the same way. These are not 'hollow points' in the terms of what is prohibited.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 6:36 pm to KosmoCramer
Always kinda thought of it like saying "no punching in the face" before you get in a fight.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 6:44 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
Yeah it's stupid. It's the same kind of stupidity that used to allow for lining all your troops up to shoot at each other en masse but shooting at officers with snipers was considered dishonorable.
It's a holdover from very stupid times and should be ignored. You don't shoot at the enemy for style points. You're trying to kill or maim him so that he no longer can kill or maim you. Duh.
We're still stuck in this kind of 'make war civilized' bullshite mentality with the advent of drone wars and precision bombing and whatnot.
Guess what... If your country couldn't take care of whatever problem has now forced my country to come and start killing people in your neighborhood, I don't really care about you and your kids. That's MY KID over there having to do it. frick you.
I believe Robert E Lee was correct when he said, "It is well that war is so terrible lest we should grow too fond of it"
War should be total. Short. Horrible. And rare. People might actually try to avoid it then.
It's a holdover from very stupid times and should be ignored. You don't shoot at the enemy for style points. You're trying to kill or maim him so that he no longer can kill or maim you. Duh.
We're still stuck in this kind of 'make war civilized' bullshite mentality with the advent of drone wars and precision bombing and whatnot.
Guess what... If your country couldn't take care of whatever problem has now forced my country to come and start killing people in your neighborhood, I don't really care about you and your kids. That's MY KID over there having to do it. frick you.
I believe Robert E Lee was correct when he said, "It is well that war is so terrible lest we should grow too fond of it"
War should be total. Short. Horrible. And rare. People might actually try to avoid it then.
This post was edited on 3/11/13 at 6:48 pm
Posted on 3/11/13 at 6:54 pm to faxis
quote:
War should be total. Short. Horrible. And rare. People might actually try to avoid it then.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 7:00 pm to Capt ST
I'm just sickened by the fact that a hundred years after WW 1 proved how stupid that shite was, we haven't learned a single thing and now live in a state of perpetual war to the point that people think that's just how it is.
Rules? Are you shitting me? You want to stop war, you make it clear you will annihilate anyone that wants to start one with you. Prove it. Don't quake in horror at your own power to snuff a civilization. Make it where the only one's that survive are the ones willing to stop being assholes.
The whole idea of war being some kind of gentlemens sport is nauseating. Maybe then we wouldn't have to spend all this money on a military. Want to go to war with us, enjoy your radiation.
Rules? Are you shitting me? You want to stop war, you make it clear you will annihilate anyone that wants to start one with you. Prove it. Don't quake in horror at your own power to snuff a civilization. Make it where the only one's that survive are the ones willing to stop being assholes.
The whole idea of war being some kind of gentlemens sport is nauseating. Maybe then we wouldn't have to spend all this money on a military. Want to go to war with us, enjoy your radiation.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 7:02 pm to faxis
faxis for SECDEF!
Posted on 3/11/13 at 7:04 pm to faxis
quote:
Want to go to war with us, enjoy your radiation.
Not down with creating glass anywhere, because it has a global impact. But I'm all about a thick dense fog covering a city in a valley on a still morning. Much like the Union Carbide incident.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 7:08 pm to Capt ST
Works for me. But you get my point.
We want to go to war but we tie our own hands?
Well that doesn't really show me that we actually needed to go to war. Nor that we even had enough reason to. We go to war now to make people like us. SHITTING ME???? In what universe does that make sense? They either provoked war or they didn't. If they did, then it's on them. If they didn't, then what the frick are we doing?
Hollow points are just too evil for war...
We want to go to war but we tie our own hands?
Well that doesn't really show me that we actually needed to go to war. Nor that we even had enough reason to. We go to war now to make people like us. SHITTING ME???? In what universe does that make sense? They either provoked war or they didn't. If they did, then it's on them. If they didn't, then what the frick are we doing?
Hollow points are just too evil for war...
This post was edited on 3/11/13 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 3/11/13 at 7:20 pm to KosmoCramer
Take this for what it's worth... I asked a relative, who is a retired Marine gunnery Sargent that very question, and his answer was that a wounded enemy's day is usually over after he is shot, and most fire fights have multiple combatants, so a FMJ round stands a fair chance of passing through one enemy and taking another down with him... or in his words, two for the price of one.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 8:21 pm to faxis
quote:
I find it the height of hypocrisy that while we wouldn't ever allow our guys to use them to kill a terrorist, Homeland Security just bought a billion and a half of them to use on US. And not a peep of indignation from those who would freak out if we shot at our enemies with them.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 8:34 pm to faxis
quote:
A BILLION AND A HALF ROUNDS
If you believe that's just for use on planes by air marshals you are terribly naive.
naive?
more like he's a moron!
Posted on 3/11/13 at 8:40 pm to faxis
quote:
I find it the height of hypocrisy that while we wouldn't ever allow our guys to use them to kill a terrorist, Homeland Security just bought a billion and a half of them to use on US. And not a peep of indignation from those who would freak out if we shot at our enemies with them.
The same can be said for LEOs...they all carry hollow points in their pistols.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 9:13 pm to brass2mouth
The difference in Homeland Security and local law enforcement is that local law enforcement would have to deal with local reprisals on their families if they chose 'unwisely'. They won't. They'll do like the Sheriff of Caddo said recently and quit their jobs first.
Homeland Security on the other hand can be used in other areas of the country where it would be harder to get at them so they would be more likely to actually follow orders.
Homeland Security on the other hand can be used in other areas of the country where it would be harder to get at them so they would be more likely to actually follow orders.
This post was edited on 3/11/13 at 9:15 pm
Posted on 3/11/13 at 9:24 pm to faxis
Hasn't the 1.5 billion round thing been debunked?
Posted on 3/11/13 at 9:39 pm to uway
The thing about the 2700 armored vehicles has. Those are for the Marines apparently.
The ammo thing has not to my knowledge. Those are fairly easy to track since the bids are public.
The ammo thing has not to my knowledge. Those are fairly easy to track since the bids are public.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 10:38 pm to faxis
My right knee is thankful for FMJ's, but I damn sure hated shooting them.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 10:45 pm to faxis
Faxis
You are one of my favorite posters. A no bullshite kinda fella.
I agree wholeheartedly.
You are one of my favorite posters. A no bullshite kinda fella.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Posted on 3/11/13 at 10:53 pm to El Josey Wales
People are scared to discuss this shite at this point.
If that doesn't terrify freedom loving people I don't know what will till it's too late.
If that doesn't terrify freedom loving people I don't know what will till it's too late.
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