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re: The intelligence of deer from different areas
Posted on 1/4/17 at 8:48 am to bluemoons
Posted on 1/4/17 at 8:48 am to bluemoons
quote:
I'm in the minority, but I do not believe deer are abnormally intelligent creatures.
Agree
quote:
I just think they have heightened senses and are terrified of literally everything.
This is kinda the original question of the thread, and I don't completely agree. In areas where people don't hunt deer they have turned into big squirrels, feeding right next to people and houses. Staten Island, I shite you not, is giving deer vasectomies because they're overrunning the urban area. All of us have driven down the interstate withing a few yards of a deer and not had it even blink.
They may not be all that intelligent, but they seem to recognize patterns really, really quickly. That's why I maintain it's not really about management when it comes to deer being wary and nocturnal, it's all about how much they perceive humans as a threat.
0
Posted on 1/4/17 at 9:26 am to LSUaFOOL
quote:
I've only noticed that they have become more nocturnal during the last 20years. They are evolving to become night movers.
Nah. Tens of thousands get killed in daylight every year in Louisiana. I think they are nocturnal around corn feeders and piles of rice bran because they wise up to it. A trophy buck rarely gets killed over a corn pile (it happens, but its rare). Deer cant sit still for 12 hours, and move only at night. They will move. They have to get up, eat, and move around.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 9:52 am to Ron Cheramie
quote:
Didn't read but the "you can't see genetics". Spot on with that comment. The truth is that these older "cull bucks" have already bred does in your herd and their " inferior" genetics are out there.
The other part of that is that 50% of genetics come from momma
You can root out poor genes at early ages and removing them from the population does help over time. If you root out poor genetics on the buck side leaving better genetics for them to breed does with then over time you can decrease the poor genes. The impact isn't seen immediately but will be seen down the road. To say that it doesn't impact things is false.
Getting the doe to buck ratio closer to 1:1 helps root out poor genetics as well being the dominant bucks will fight to keep the inferior bucks from breeding as easily with less does to breed.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 9:53 am to Scrowe
quote:
You can root out poor genes at early ages and removing them from the population does help over time. If you root out poor genetics on the buck side leaving better genetics for them to breed does with then over time you can decrease the poor genes. The impact isn't seen immediately but will be seen down the road. To say that it doesn't impact things is false.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 9:54 am to Ron Cheramie
I agree. I'm looking into the impact of corn feeders on our deer movement (plus hog attraction). Problem is that we are in pine/timber company land with hardwood bottoms. Early on the mast crop is decent in the bottoms, but it gets eaten up quickly. Then the shorter days and frost knocks back the browse. If we didn't corn, the deer would disperse more. I definitely see the "feeder deer" getting more nocturnal.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 10:03 am to Scrowe
All true statements but a 1:1 buck to doe ratio in Louisiana is all but a myth.
As far as culling them when they are young, a yearling buck may nkt display his full characteristics of what you are wanting to "cull". The other part is that the biggest bucks don't eat to breed all the does. The youngsters get in there too especially during the late ruts which are usually the fawns of the year going into estrus fir their first time
If you can't tell I just hate the word "cull" and most people that use the word have no clue about deer biology or basic genetics
As far as culling them when they are young, a yearling buck may nkt display his full characteristics of what you are wanting to "cull". The other part is that the biggest bucks don't eat to breed all the does. The youngsters get in there too especially during the late ruts which are usually the fawns of the year going into estrus fir their first time
If you can't tell I just hate the word "cull" and most people that use the word have no clue about deer biology or basic genetics
Posted on 1/4/17 at 10:05 am to EarlyBird
Yeah most the time when people say deer are nocturnal really mean to say they aren't coming to their feeders
Posted on 1/4/17 at 10:11 am to Ron Cheramie
I agree with the premise, but question the feasibility of implementing it correctly. I know guys in clubs that slap fines on members and and educate the hell out of them. They still get young bucks with good gentics shot each year. I may get to the point one day where I feel our guys can handle it, but right now, telling them to remove bad genetics would result in just as many good genetics getting shot. If I knew we could play Darwin with little to no negative ramifications, I'd do it. A huge camera initiative probably helps as well. Ask me in five years and I may have a different opinion.
This post was edited on 1/4/17 at 10:13 am
Posted on 1/4/17 at 10:13 am to Scrowe
quote:
To say that it doesn't impact things is false.
No one said the impact is zero.
Again, people are gonna do what they want, but deer have natural mechanisms to ensure their genetics don't stagnate. You're fighting those every step of the way. To make a real impact you would have to correctly identify every cull as a fawn and then kill them all. How many culls you gonna realistically shoot in a year? Two? Three? Misidentify one buck and you're taking almost as many steps back as forward. Add in the bucks you want to take, and you're removing just as many "good" genes as "bad" ones. No one's saying it's impossible or makes no difference, what's being said is that the vast majority of people don't have the knowledge, skill, or time to do it in such a way that it will actually have an impact.
Bottom line, most people shoot cull bucks because it's fun and makes you feel like you're helping when in reality you aren't moving the needle. There are much more constructive ways to improve quality of bucks, most of them just involve sweating and that's not as easy or fun as pulling a trigger.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 10:24 am to Ron Cheramie
Cull is a fantastic word. I made many a paying member happy with these two.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 11:09 am to AlxTgr
both those deer have skeeted all up in many a doe before you shot them Those genetics are all up in the population still
Unless you can tell they are gonna turn out to be a "cull" before they get a chance to breed you aren't doing anything
Kill it because you want to, just don't pretend you are doing any real management with it
Unless you can tell they are gonna turn out to be a "cull" before they get a chance to breed you aren't doing anything
Kill it because you want to, just don't pretend you are doing any real management with it
Posted on 1/4/17 at 11:29 am to Ron Cheramie
quote:OK, no reason to stop that bastard.
both those deer have skeeted all up in many a doe before you shot them Those genetics are all up in the population still
quote:This is objectively wrong.
Unless you can tell they are gonna turn out to be a "cull" before they get a chance to breed you aren't doing anything
quote:I am not pretending. You are a very good poster. This just isn't your thing.
Kill it because you want to, just don't pretend you are doing any real management with it
Posted on 1/4/17 at 11:36 am to AlxTgr
Since y'all ignored the original intent of the thread. I just wanted to say, no spots = dead.
Spots in the garden is fair game.
They eat all my broccoli.
Kidding.... Maybe.
Spots in the garden is fair game.
They eat all my broccoli.
Kidding.... Maybe.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 11:39 am to X123F45
Posted on 1/4/17 at 11:40 am to Ron Cheramie
quote:
Nah. Tens of thousands get killed in daylight every year in Louisiana. I think they are nocturnal around corn feeders and piles of rice bran because they wise up to it. A trophy buck rarely gets killed over a corn pile (it happens, but its rare). Deer cant sit still for 12 hours, and move only at night. They will move. They have to get up, eat, and move around
Well I turn in my yard at night and over 40 deer in my yard anywhere after 10pm. All 20 people down my gravel road all agree. We see them in the day time all year round until it starts to get cool.... then they become ghosts of the night. Soon as daylight comes, They are not seen. I don't use corn or any bait, or attractant. Stopped useing that because the will only eat at night. I have also killed more deer than neighbors became I dont precise a food source and I think they ease threw my area to get ready to feed after the sun goes down I believe they feel safer at night because they don't get shot at as often.
This post was edited on 1/4/17 at 11:51 am
Posted on 1/4/17 at 12:08 pm to X123F45
quote:
Since y'all ignored the original intent of the thread.
Plenty of people commented on it, but there's only so far you can go when you're just speculating. FWIW, I've actually had pretty good luck calling in really young bucks in a very pressured area. As someone else pointed out, it's pretty likely the mature bucks here respond to calling too, they are just more leery and have learned to circle downwind first. That's usually where it ends, with you never seeing the deer and convinced he just didn't respond.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 12:25 pm to Ron Cheramie
quote:
both those deer have skeeted all up in many a doe before you shot them Those genetics are all up in the population still
So instead of taking them out the population at 3-4 years old, let mother nature take them out at 7 giving them 3-4 more years of negative impact? Please tell me how this isn't a net positive.
quote:
Unless you can tell they are gonna turn out to be a "cull" before they get a chance to breed you aren't doing anything
You are taking it out of the breeding population of future years.
quote:
Kill it because you want to, just don't pretend you are doing any real management with it
It's a part of management. Most important, no, but it is a part of management. You can't sit there and say it has no impact. The removal of unwanted genetics is applied by breeders yet you say it doesn't matter. If this were the case high fenced facilities would just let trash bucks stay in the herd instead of offering them up for sacrifice in comparison their trophies.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 12:30 pm to Ron Cheramie
One club I used to visit allowed some very young bucks to be taken. I can't recall the exact deal, but if a buck has less than 8 points on his second set, he gone.
Posted on 1/4/17 at 12:36 pm to Scrowe
In a closed system (no emigration or immigration), yes you can have an affect, but the typical hunting club/lease/peepaws back 40 in Louisiana absolutely not. There are so many variables. Again, 50% of the genes come from the doe and a buck's offspring does not always look like the daddy.
I am not arguing against shooting what you consider inferior genetics. Go ahead and shoot the "cull". You will definitely keep from getting the genetics of that deer any further into the population, but if you want to eliminate it's genes from the population completely you better find out which doe produced the "cull", shoot her and then shoot every one of her offspring, which is impossible without having a tag in the deers ears and a pedigree sheet with it. Those genes are in the population and can pop up way down the line.
Thats all I am saying
I am not arguing against shooting what you consider inferior genetics. Go ahead and shoot the "cull". You will definitely keep from getting the genetics of that deer any further into the population, but if you want to eliminate it's genes from the population completely you better find out which doe produced the "cull", shoot her and then shoot every one of her offspring, which is impossible without having a tag in the deers ears and a pedigree sheet with it. Those genes are in the population and can pop up way down the line.
Thats all I am saying
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