re: “That deer was on the decline”

Cocodrie finally did something about the youth slaughter,

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Over the past few years, we have noticed that the quality of the deer herd has continued to trend down at Bayou Cocodrie. This decline can be attributed to several factors. This includes more reforestations to adjacent lands surrounding the refuge. This simply means the deer have more locations and opportunities to forage on places other than the refuge. Those places, that were reforested 10-15 years ago have now matured and producing lots of food sources. We also think that hogs have played a role in dispersing herds across the landscape. These factors combined with the loss of the Bayou Cocodrie Refuge Manager and Maintenance Worker has caused us to re-align the way we manage resources on the refuge.
Starting this year we will be making the following changes:
There will be a youth hunt this year. There WILL NOT be any blinds available for this lottery hunt. All youth that hunt this weekend will be allowed to hunt the designated open areas of the refuge only.
There will be a mobility impaired hunt but with significant modifications. These include a call in, first come first serve basis. There will only be two designated mobility impaired permanent blinds (to be determined) in the closed area at Bayou Cocodrie. Folks interested in those blinds will need to call the St. Catherine Creek NWR office at: 601.442.6696 to make reservations. Reservations are for one day only.
We have also removed the deer firearm hunt at Bayou Cocodrie in early December. Instead we now have the primitive firearm hunt (reduced by two days) in its place. There were far too many young bucks (11/2 -21/2) being harvested during the Firearm hunt in early December.
Also, there is no registration or payment for the youth hunt, since there are no lotteries this year.”

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All deer killed on the refuge are aged.

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I mean, when people make statements like you did, that makes me laugh.

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Well, I mean....why? You haven't provided anything to prove anything to the contrary. What you linked was an article discussing high grading, which in and of itself is debatable, but discussed absolutely zero facts or evidence about the effectiveness of culling practices in wild populations. You won't find any, either. But you will find loads of articles and research disputing the effectiveness of actual culling programs. Here is one fact....when you know the genealogy of every single deer in a given deer herd...bucks and does alike...and you remove the deer you want every year to change a particular antler trait, it will still take you 13 years to do so. And that's in a penned herd that you know without a doubt which deer sired or fawned which deer. That's facts from New Zealand where on if their main exports is whitetail meat, antlers, hides, etc.

Can you find me any ranches who offer management hunts who no longer have to? Any herd, especially wild herd, that has culled any antler trait? Just one. Find me just one that has been able to cull any antler trait out of a herd. You won't. It's just an excuse to shoot either more deer or young deer. Culling for the sake of changing antler traits simply does not work. There are many others reasons to do so that can help your deer herd, but for the sake of getting rid of 8 points, or deer with no brow tinea, whatever....lmao. Get real.

There's lots of reasons to remove certain bucks from one's land. Even if it's food related. That's still a cull even if you deny science and genetics.

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Are people saying that that does not work?

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Here
we
go...

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That's my own study.

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I must hunt with people that are cliche' challenged. All I ever hear is, "must be present to win" and "aim low if they're crawlin'".

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There's lots of reasons to remove certain bucks from one's land. Even if it's food related.

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But see, now we are getting somewhere. I don't disagree with you at all here. My only issue is that people use culling for food and what not because it is "easy", gives them a reason to pull the trigger, and they have misguided expectations of what taking out that deer will do...all without having addressed the difficult things like habitat improvement, sex ratios, et al.

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deny science and genetics.

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Ahh shite, you lost me again.

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So what does that mean to you?

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That on the King Ranch where they did this, with supplemental feeding, managed buck:doe ratios, extensive predator controls, concentrated breeding periods....basically a situation unlike anything any of us without 10,000 acres of high fence would be able to duplicate, that spikes and 3 points don't equal up to yearling 6 and 8 points. If I were able to go on a stand and see 10-15 mature bucks every hunt, I'd probably shoot the spikes too. Not because I was changing anything, but because it would take out mouths and I wouldn't have to drop a grand a week in high protein feed.

A couple things to note, though. This and the Kerr study are basically the only two to show this. Both of those study sites were very controlled situations....controlled herds. Another done in TX by Dr Kroll and one in MS especially by Dr Jacobson showed exactly the opposite.

To the Hewitt study, in his research he also found that there was zero difference in yearlings who were 4 points vs those that were 8 points...kinda contradicts itself, don't you think? He also points out in his study that culling won't change any genetics of the herd, and that "culling" of spikes and 3 points as yearlings shouldn't be considered until food, adequate age structure, and sex ratios are addressed. Just having adequate older age class bucks in the herd is enough to eliminate 99% of wild deer herds. Well, that may be an exaggeration, but you get the point.

One other point. After that study concluded in 2007, they began intensive culling on the king ranch. They even went so far as to shoot them out of helicopters. They shot every undesirable buck they could see. The result? Smaller bucks.

I could go on, but people are probably already bitching about how long this is.