re: Police going back to 9mm?

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So you believe that it's okay for NYPD to routinely shoot innocent civilians while missing the bad guys? I mean I guess they could say that they are stressed. Maybe they need better training? I mean it is a job and all.

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I don't remember posting anything close to that. Training helps a great deal as muscle memory is the most important thing when shooting but there is no way to know how someone will react when fired upon. Training for the NYPD is rather rigorous and they shoot quite a bit in the academy. Any additional shooting would yield minimal improvement at an extroadinary cost. Soldiers miss in combat all of the time as well you just don't hear about the civilians. As I said earlier it is easy to criticize from the sidelines but you really have absolutely no idea what it is like to be shot at.

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but you really have absolutely no idea what it is like to be shot at.

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You sure about that, chief? I get it, you're Rambo.

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condemning the actions

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According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time.

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[link=(www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57502545-504083/empire-state-building-shooting-sparks-questions-about-nypd-shot-accuracy/)]LINK[/link]

And the rest of your shite, yeah sure.

Be pretty fricking hard to do any worse. Where do the bullets go when they miss 66% of the time?

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There is almost nothing in the world that means less to me than what you believe. Thank you for validiting my suspicions.

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As I said earlier it is easy to criticize from the sidelines but you really have absolutely no idea what it is like to be shot at.

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I got shot at once and chased the guy out of the house with a framing gun. There wasn't any thought about it, just went into action. Probably 7 other people in the house at the time. Some people just have the ability to deal with things naturally, and some don't. With others, there has to be a significant amount of training to build up the correct muscle memory to safely do these things. I know it sounds bad, but they don't have the ability to deal with that type of situation, and they must go through everything they learned in training once something goes down.

I am not sure how much training is required for police these days though. My dad has a few younger kids in the house and spends at least 6 weekends a year training himself for that type of situation. No amount of training is ever enough IMHO

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Excellent post. And seems like a great story, not sure of the rest of the details though.

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Didn't end up hitting anything but the wall and a window. Nails fly like a bent arrow


But yeah, everyone is wanting all kinds of background checks when people buy guns, but I believe that training should be pushed heavily. Not a requirement, but more of a severe peer pressure thing. Going to the stores and seeing who was buying what really opened my eyes to what could happen.

Another thing that scared me was when I went to the CCW class with my stepdad. I shot his revolver a few days earlier and put the spent brass back in the box. He loaded them into the gun for the shooting portion and couldn't figure out why it wasn't shooting. Then, he blamed the sights on the snubby he was shooting on his bad shots. I had to explain to him that the barrel was his sights. Scary stuff, but imagine the same people buying millions of guns over the past month

Here ya go. Easy as apple pie.


Seems like they should train and get used to that trigger weight, right? Or should that be a valid excuse for only being accurate 1/3 of the time?

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A= .40 cal
B = 9mm
C = .45 cal

My opinion from a straight law enforcement perspective, is that given the choice between 9mm and .40 cal is that 9mm is superior. Why?

In the FBI test barriers it penetrates better. Above is the bare gelatin tests. See the barrier tests here. The nine penetrates slightly better through heavy clothing, sheet metal, and glass (especially glass) than the .40 cal. Those are of particular interest because those are the barriers I'm most likely to encounter. Now you are saying, you said the nine is SUPERIOR but you said it only penetrates slightly better. Take into account other issues from a LEO perspective.

1. Number of rounds carried. I can carry more with the 9 over .40.

2. Weight. I can carry more rounds and they weigh less.

3. Cost. They are cheaper. On a department basis this counts. I'll take more live fire training anyway I can get it. Even on my own dime.

4. Recoil. Not from a that person is a pussy perspective, but on the follow up shots perspective.

5. In AL we qualify from 25 yards and in. Where I work we train farther out than that. 9 shoots flatter. If you are shooting farther you are in a bad spot to begin with till you get to a long gun, make it easier. (.357 sig is the $hit in this discussion, but that is another can of worms)

Pistols are defensive weapons. They punch holes so your marksmanship better have you able to punch the holes where they can do the most good to stop a threat. If I knew in advance I was going to a gun fight I would have my rifle and the debate over pistol caliber would be irrelevant. Just my take.

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Solid post. Thanks.

Five0,
I'm curious what brand/bullet weight of ammo was used for the ballistic gelatin pics you posted?

Thats the problem. LEOs are not most people. They are supposed to be highly trained marksman with lots of practice and training. We are finding that that is not the case. Of course one cannot tell how one would react unless put into said situation. However, once a person has been put into that situation and has an average accuracy rating of 33%, fire them. Why keep a person around that you know cannot handle a stressful situation? Slash the department by 1/2 and pay the better trained LEOs better. Keep in mind, 33% is the average, lots of people shot worse than this, while the good ones shot better.