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re: Diesel Trucks
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:25 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:25 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
the market has proven its not what they want. Platinum edition 4x4's are both what sells and what has the big time margins on it, and the original owner isn't keeping it out of warranty anyway,
It will be interesting to see when or if this eventually hits the fan. Seems like eventually the resale of these trucks are going to keep dropping once its readily apparent that the new owner could see $10-20k in repair bills in the near future.
Will trade-in values drop so low that even the baws that buy these new rigs will start question their financial choices?
1
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:32 am to Turnblad85
quote:
Will trade-in values drop so low that even the baws that buy these new rigs
No. I've seen very little indication from anyone that this will happen. The general thought is still "it's a diesel so it'll last forever" and "I'll just delete it if it gives me trouble."
As long as they can still borrow the money for them, they'll continue buying them. I will say that it seems the average mileage on used diesels hitting the lots seems to be going up.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:34 am to felps22
Went from a 16 F150 to a Chevy 18 2500 duramax. Bought a 100hp tractor so I needed the extra truck. Saying that the 2500 has been flawless.. it’s not going to win the HP war or torque war but it just works. I do firmly believe if you get a diesel it needs to be worked hard monthly. Terrible idea for a mall crawler. 9 mpg with 100 hp tractor, 30 ft goose neck and implements @75mph. 22.4 mpg with out load..
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:41 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
The general thought is still "it's a diesel so it'll last forever" and "I'll just delete it if it gives me trouble."
Sure seems like at some point that word will get around that the above isn't as easy as that. Like within a decade or so.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 10:41 am to Recovered
quote:
firmly believe if you get a diesel it needs to be worked hard monthly.
Its not so much that it needs to get worked hard as it needs long continuous runs. The harder you work it the shorter those runs can be, but short drives and sitting up absolutely smokes them. Hotshot drivers were routinely getting over 500k miles from the '18 and earlier rams, because they would run nearly non stop. If you had a 150 mile commute every day, it'd do that nearly forever unloaded and be just fine even if it never pulled much. Working it is definitely best though, the longer and straighter the better.
DEF crystallization is the main issue with sitting up, and frequent regens are the main issue with short drives.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 11:00 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
What can you tell me about deleting the truck and tuning it? 21 RAM 2500 is what I got. I want this shite gone so bad, but I'm hearing conflicting stories about having to send the PCM in for decrypting and being without it for some amount of time. And I've read horror stories of people deleting and things going to hell in a handbasket. Shops won't delete the DEF and EGR system any longer so you have to find a guy in his garage that knows what he's doing. I have no clue how to go about finding that guy and have done some research on the tuning, but I'm wholly unqualified to do my own tuning.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 11:21 am to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
What can you tell me about deleting the truck and tuning it?
Me personally, I don't recommend it. Technical reasoning below. Professional reason here- Its my personal opinion the the EPA is extremely serious about prosecuting the people who do it and once the tuners are all dealt with (they are actively being found and heavily fined daily) then the individuals trying to sell the vehicles will be their next focus, and people operating them after that. Its technically in violation of federal regulations and with the federal government hiring more people every day, you should think about your comfort level with potentially putting yourself on their naughty list and/or possibly heavily reducing the resale value of your truck. At best, their condemnation of it and prosecution of the people involved will erode the value of your truck. At worst, you get a letter from the EPA with a notice and a nice juicy fine of some arbitrary value that the EPA decided you owe for poisoning the earth, and a mandate to repair or destroy the vehicle within the month. While not a common occurrence yet, it has happened to some people already.
If you're concerned about the emissions equipment my recommendation is always sell the truck and get a gas burner. If you need a diesel and use it as such (primarily loaded long drives) than the emissions stuff isnt likely to strand you anywhere. If you dont use it that way, a gas truck won't be any handicap to you and likely cost less to own and operate.
That said, I know some people are bent on doing and will find ways to get it done. I personally do not condone it at all, and I think it's a foolish thing to do to any DEF equipped pickup truck.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 11:32 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Think downshift is on top of this entire diesel business. All of them have different issues. Fuel pumps, oil pumps, def systems etc….
I do have a question for you downshift? I was told by a friend who runs 5 2500 chevys to always use def from the pump. Only use jugs in emergency because of the crystallization. How do you feel about that
I do have a question for you downshift? I was told by a friend who runs 5 2500 chevys to always use def from the pump. Only use jugs in emergency because of the crystallization. How do you feel about that
Posted on 11/22/24 at 11:33 am to NASA_ISS_Tiger
'16 Duramax Denali. 180k miles on it. Tuned and deleted. I couldnt ask for a better truck. I'll be driving this thing til one of us dies.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 11:45 am to Recovered
quote:
always use def from the pump. Only use jugs in emergency because of the crystallization.
Pretty sound advice. How it has been/is being stored is the concern. It readily decomposed at elevated temps (i think it starts accelerating at like 85F) so DEF stored in in-ground tanks is better protected from that vs DEF jugs kept on the porch of some store in the south. It's also less likely to have been stored in a hot arse warehouse somewhere. You're kind of at the mercy of the suppliers here and unfortunately, to some extent it's a dice roll either way and really nothing you can do about it.
Buying it at the pump from a high volume truck stop is probably your best bet. That's what I do. Buying it in a jug from outside of a bumfuk truckstop in Alabama in September is the worst. Do that and then park your truck in the heat for a couple weeks, and you'll almost certainly create a problem.
Ideally, flushing out the system with distilled water once a year or so would be the absolute best. Unfortunately the protections on the vehicle make this very difficult to do without factory service software. You can drop the DEF module and clean it with distilled water, and flush the tank, and clean the injector, and dilute the def to the bottom end of spec to decrease the risk further, but if you mess that up you could strand yourself or cost yourself some money.
If these systems were properly designed for longevity, there would be a scheduled water flush for the system and a simple means for the owner to do it.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 12:08 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
I appreciate you typing that out. And good perspective.
My intentions behind wanting to delete has more to do with wanting to make the vehicle last longer, removing parts that break and wear out that really serve no purpose to the vehicle unless you believe that personal use diesel smog is polluting the air in a meaningful way. I've also read that you can tune your truck, increase power and fuel mileage at the same time. Is this still an option while keeping the DEF and EGR? If so, I might look into going that route.
Also, were the current emissions rule passed through congress? Seems like the Chevron ruling should allow someone to challenge this to a higher court and have it killed if it was an EPA regulation that wasn't passed through congress.
My intentions behind wanting to delete has more to do with wanting to make the vehicle last longer, removing parts that break and wear out that really serve no purpose to the vehicle unless you believe that personal use diesel smog is polluting the air in a meaningful way. I've also read that you can tune your truck, increase power and fuel mileage at the same time. Is this still an option while keeping the DEF and EGR? If so, I might look into going that route.
Also, were the current emissions rule passed through congress? Seems like the Chevron ruling should allow someone to challenge this to a higher court and have it killed if it was an EPA regulation that wasn't passed through congress.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 12:24 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
If these systems were properly designed for longevity, there would be a scheduled water flush for the system and a simple means for the owner to do it.
Exactly, they should have a CIP (clean in place) procedure that allows owners to do this
Posted on 11/22/24 at 12:45 pm to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
with wanting to make the vehicle last longer, removing parts that break and wear out that really serve no purpose to the vehicle unless
My personal opinion is that deleting almost always reduces the overall reliability, but that is just an opinion and i dont have any data to support it. I did spend some of my life well connected to diesel engine design and reliability work, and I'm basing my opinion on that. Your mindset is a carryover from the mid 2000's when emissions controls were just coming out, and it was very much worth doing in those days. I do not think it's applicable to new trucks with DEF systems. I can explain further later on if you'd like.
quote:
also read that you can tune your truck, increase power and fuel mileage at the same time. Is this still an option while keeping the DEF and EGR?
Yes, this is possible and there are tuners who do it. I think this is what all of the big name delete tuners who got busted are doing now and as far as I know it's perfectly legal to do. That said, I can't conceive why anyone would actually do this. The trucks are ignorantly powerful already, and whenever power goes up wear and tear go up with it. Reliability generally goes down. It costs money to do. There's no good reason to do it unless you need to win a race. Your fuel mileage won't go up hardly any if at all, and if you're subject to the skinny pedal giving you the giggles your real world fuel usage might go up.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 12:56 pm to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
were the current emissions rule passed through congress? Seems like the Chevron ruling should allow someone to challenge this to a higher court and have it killed if it was an EPA regulation that wasn't passed through congress.
No, they were not. As far as I know the EPA was created by a mandate and I know the emissions regulations are not laws passed by congress. Theoretically, you might be correct here and I think a lot of people hope you are. Realistically I do not see the emissions regulations or the EPA going anywhere. Engine builders and equipment operators are massively invested in current tier technology and spending mountains of money to meet stage V requirements which are around the corner. All those regs going poof means all those costs are sunk, and those companies are not going to take that lightly. The ones who spent the money to comply will basically be punished while the ones who didn't will be rewarded.
I think the best we can hope for is stopping the current trend of increasing regulation every year for the rest of history and HOPEFULLY
CAFE getting it's nuts cut off somehow. California is really fricking this up for us worse than the EPA is.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 4:24 pm to WhiskeyThrottle
Good points
I was in the market for a new truck a few months back. Wanted a 3/4 ton for pulling my 50hp tractor and goodneck cattle trailer. I was hesitant on buying a diesel because of the environmental stuff.
When I started pricing used trucks, a diesel was only ~$5k more than a gas burner but when the gas burner hit 100k miles their values plummeted and the diesels are still valued fairly high with 150k miles.
Strictly based on their abilities to hold value longer I went with a diesel.
I was in the market for a new truck a few months back. Wanted a 3/4 ton for pulling my 50hp tractor and goodneck cattle trailer. I was hesitant on buying a diesel because of the environmental stuff.
When I started pricing used trucks, a diesel was only ~$5k more than a gas burner but when the gas burner hit 100k miles their values plummeted and the diesels are still valued fairly high with 150k miles.
Strictly based on their abilities to hold value longer I went with a diesel.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 7:59 am to Cajun Slick
The 2025 Ram will 2500 will get the HO 6.7 Cummins standard and a ZF 8 speed. The problem will be the redesign is kinda ugly.
Also, rumor is in order to delete it you’ll need a completely new ECU which is around $5-6k. Or so I’ve been told.
Also, rumor is in order to delete it you’ll need a completely new ECU which is around $5-6k. Or so I’ve been told.
Posted on 11/23/24 at 5:03 pm to Cajun Slick
quote:
Ram is rumored to be switching transmissions to a ZF.
Great news. They’ve been running with ZF transmissions in their hemi 2500s for 4 years now. I have one and it’s been great. Basically bought the truck because of it, coming from a sierra.
Posted on 11/25/24 at 7:38 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
What is your experience with more modern diesels longevity? Do you still think they run for a very long time with proper maintenance with the emissions systems vs. previous truck models that did not have emissions? Back in the day the truck was always just "getting broken in" at 100,000 miles and they could go 400-500 without any real engine problems. Is that still the case?
Also, as far as tuning the truck, you're 100% right that the diesel has enough power to do anything that I want. I think I imagine some sluggishness in the engine at times and what I'm somewhat learning is that it takes a moment for the turbo to spool up before it delivers the power. Is that just a part of life with a turbo diesel.
And lastly, are you saying it is not possible to achieve mid 20s fuel mileage with modern diesels? Seems like I've read guys tuning their trucks to get better power and better fuel mileage. The former is only a mild interest but if it came with better fuel mileage, it seems appealing. Is it not practical or possible to do this?
Obviously I'm a diesel novice, so I appreciate your responses here.
Also, as far as tuning the truck, you're 100% right that the diesel has enough power to do anything that I want. I think I imagine some sluggishness in the engine at times and what I'm somewhat learning is that it takes a moment for the turbo to spool up before it delivers the power. Is that just a part of life with a turbo diesel.
And lastly, are you saying it is not possible to achieve mid 20s fuel mileage with modern diesels? Seems like I've read guys tuning their trucks to get better power and better fuel mileage. The former is only a mild interest but if it came with better fuel mileage, it seems appealing. Is it not practical or possible to do this?
Obviously I'm a diesel novice, so I appreciate your responses here.
Posted on 11/25/24 at 8:48 am to WhiskeyThrottle
Even a mildly tuned, deleted truck will have a night and day difference in performance versus a stock truck.
You can get emissions compliant tunes without deleting your truck and see huge gains in every aspect. Without really damaging any component.
Turbo lag, or pedal delay can also be programmed out for better throttle response.
My vehicle had the DEF pump go out and parts and labor were $1200. Deleted it for $1800 and it truly made a huge difference. This was well before the EPA went cracking down on tuners and shops who deleted vehicles.
You can get emissions compliant tunes without deleting your truck and see huge gains in every aspect. Without really damaging any component.
Turbo lag, or pedal delay can also be programmed out for better throttle response.
My vehicle had the DEF pump go out and parts and labor were $1200. Deleted it for $1800 and it truly made a huge difference. This was well before the EPA went cracking down on tuners and shops who deleted vehicles.
Posted on 11/25/24 at 10:57 am to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
What is your experience with more modern diesels longevity?
'18 and earlier rams with the aisin transmission are 700k mile trucks. These days, don't really know. The hotshot drivers are saying the new rams with hydraulic lifters are 300k mile rigs now.
I don't have much direct experience with Ford, but my friend who does says they are 300k mile engines with random come-aparts.
I don't know anyone running chevy fleet trucks. The people I know using them personally like them, but only one of them is around 100k miles. No issues with them but like i said, low mile sample size.
So, my opinion of the stuff on the market right now is you should expect 300-400k before having to go into the engine for injectors or a turbocharger or something else expensive.
quote:
Also, as far as tuning the truck
Just don't do it.
quote:
Seems like I've read guys tuning their trucks to get better power and better fuel mileage
Yes, you can get extreme amounts of power out of them without changing a single hard part. Like 8,000 pound truck that will run with sports cars power. It's stupid though. If you want to go fast, get a car. Speed/power and reliability are inversely proportional. You can get better fuel mileage just because the regen cycles go away, but it isnt going to be a drastic improvement. Not nearly enough to offset the cost of all the shite you will tear up with all the new found horsepower.
You should expect about 20mpg from any of the new diesels off the lot, plus or minus a little bit depending on model and options. 18mpg is easy to get unloaded, 25mpg will only happen at low speeds and unloaded. Dragging a triple axle 5th wheel toy hauler 75mpg and you can expect about 9mpg.
People are largely full of shite about their fuel mileage for some reason. Its some kind of goofy dick measuring contest. An 18 cummins 2500 with highway gears will do 22mpg for a tank with a regen if you try REALLY hard to get it, and that's about the best you can expect.
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