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Posted on 3/21/13 at 5:30 pm to bapple
I've been pushing this for years.
Posted on 3/21/13 at 6:21 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Meat Missle Creates It's Own Glory Hole (Full Penetration!)
I love TFMs videos. They do some very interesting things with shotgun shells.
I watched the video with the #8 load and the #4 turkey load and I still come to the same conclusion - buckshot.
Think about what each shell is intended for. Turkey rounds are still designed for minimal penetration since you're still shooting a bird, albeit a bigger one. When you're not shooting at a tiny bird or a big bird's neck, you're gonna need more arse behind your shot. Since buckshot is designed to penetrate a chest cavity and do damage, it is ideal for defense against 2 legged predators.
Posted on 3/21/13 at 6:57 pm to bapple
I will have to agree with you 100% bapple, birdshot is for birds.
My HD shotgun is loaded with 3" 00 buckshot. No sense in loading it with something that might work. The 00 will get the job done, no questions asked.
So how many folks would go deer hunting with birdshot? Not many I would guess.
Funny story from my childhood...
One of my uncles stops by our house to get us to go help him load a deer he just shot. Coincidentally, it was just in front of our house.
We loaded the deer and my uncle and dad proceed to hang the deer and dress it.
Since there was no visible wound, the conversation of course shifted to "where the hell did you shoot this deer?!?!"
Well, my uncle confessed. He had shot the deer with birdshot. The wound was directly in her arse. It did not penetrate and he shot the deer from a distance of probably 30 feet.
The shot to the arse did however cause the deer to jump headfirst into a hogwire fence and break her own neck.
Now, a tragic story, also from my childhood.
One morning my dad wakes me up at around 6:00 AM.
He had spotted where a large buck had crossed the road (dirt of course, I grew up in the boonies).
The deer had headed into a stand of woods directly behind an open field. We had saw this deer several times, he was a 12 point with a huge rack.
So he gets me and another guy who lived in our area and we staked out the field at opposite corners.
My dad goes into the woods snapping branches, stomping and tromping. Sure enough, the deer runs out directly between the two of us who had the field staked. He was HUGE!
He was slightly closer to me, probably about 20 yards so I draw down on him. I was shooting my dad's Remington 1100 with 2 3/4" #1 buckshot. I proceeded to fire the first four shots. Hair flew on every shot but the deer kept running.
Just as the deer was about to jump off the 10' high red clay bank into the road, I pop him one last time.
He stumbles, rolls down into the ditch, then proceeds to get up and keep running. We tracked him, but could not find a blood trail.
My dad could not believe that deer absorbed 5 shots of #1 buck. He figured I was nervous and missed. The other guy who watched said he saw hair flying on each shot.
So we looked down and picked up an empty shell. Guess what I was shooting the deer with?
#4 Birdshot. Dammit! In my haste to load up the gun, I had grabbed the high brass green Remington shells that I thought was buckshot.
Later that year, a fellow down the road from us shot that deer. (with a 30-06 btw)
He confirmed that he was a 12 point and that his flank was full of birdshot, just under the skin.
Dammit, Dammit, Dammit!
So the moral of this story is, through real life examples of utter redneck stupidity, I learned that birdshot is for birds and buckshot is for larger prey.
YMMV, TLDR, Judge to the face, yadda yadda yadda.
Use damn buckshot for HD!
My HD shotgun is loaded with 3" 00 buckshot. No sense in loading it with something that might work. The 00 will get the job done, no questions asked.
So how many folks would go deer hunting with birdshot? Not many I would guess.
Funny story from my childhood...
One of my uncles stops by our house to get us to go help him load a deer he just shot. Coincidentally, it was just in front of our house.
We loaded the deer and my uncle and dad proceed to hang the deer and dress it.
Since there was no visible wound, the conversation of course shifted to "where the hell did you shoot this deer?!?!"
Well, my uncle confessed. He had shot the deer with birdshot. The wound was directly in her arse. It did not penetrate and he shot the deer from a distance of probably 30 feet.
The shot to the arse did however cause the deer to jump headfirst into a hogwire fence and break her own neck.
Now, a tragic story, also from my childhood.
One morning my dad wakes me up at around 6:00 AM.
He had spotted where a large buck had crossed the road (dirt of course, I grew up in the boonies).
The deer had headed into a stand of woods directly behind an open field. We had saw this deer several times, he was a 12 point with a huge rack.
So he gets me and another guy who lived in our area and we staked out the field at opposite corners.
My dad goes into the woods snapping branches, stomping and tromping. Sure enough, the deer runs out directly between the two of us who had the field staked. He was HUGE!
He was slightly closer to me, probably about 20 yards so I draw down on him. I was shooting my dad's Remington 1100 with 2 3/4" #1 buckshot. I proceeded to fire the first four shots. Hair flew on every shot but the deer kept running.
Just as the deer was about to jump off the 10' high red clay bank into the road, I pop him one last time.
He stumbles, rolls down into the ditch, then proceeds to get up and keep running. We tracked him, but could not find a blood trail.
My dad could not believe that deer absorbed 5 shots of #1 buck. He figured I was nervous and missed. The other guy who watched said he saw hair flying on each shot.
So we looked down and picked up an empty shell. Guess what I was shooting the deer with?
#4 Birdshot. Dammit! In my haste to load up the gun, I had grabbed the high brass green Remington shells that I thought was buckshot.
Later that year, a fellow down the road from us shot that deer. (with a 30-06 btw)
He confirmed that he was a 12 point and that his flank was full of birdshot, just under the skin.
Dammit, Dammit, Dammit!
So the moral of this story is, through real life examples of utter redneck stupidity, I learned that birdshot is for birds and buckshot is for larger prey.
YMMV, TLDR, Judge to the face, yadda yadda yadda.
Use damn buckshot for HD!
This post was edited on 3/21/13 at 7:05 pm
Posted on 3/21/13 at 7:23 pm to rompus
Peter Capstick wrote something interestingly related:
"I would like to mention one very important factor in choosing a buckshot load for dangerous game, and that concerns shot size selection. Most people would automatically pick 00 buck simply becuause it's so well know through TV westerns. In fact, the 12-pellet 12-gauge "baby magnum" load of 00 is considerably inferior to the same maximum powder loading of small NO. 1 buckshot in the same shell. The difference lies in the simple and astonishingly obvious fact that at .33 caliber, 00 buck is so large in the shell that there is much wasted space that could otherwise be filled with lead if the bearing surfaces of the big, round pellets didn't have to come into contact with each other. But they must. No. 1 buck is .30 caliber, only ten percent less in diameter than 00 buck and but thirteen grains per pellet lighter. However, because of the way the pellet mass fits into the shotshell, the same shell can fire an incredible seventy-five percent more pellets than the Magnum 00 load! What this means is that when you need help in a big way, you're launching eight hundred grains of lead at better than three thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle with No. 1 buck compared with a bit over six hundred grains and not quite twenty-four hundred foot-pounds with the 00 buck. If you don't reckon that can make a significant difference, you've never had something try to eat you.
One might also bear in mind that eight hundred grains of lead in a swarm has the individual pellet impact area of an umbrella, for even though still in a solid mass at more or less ten yards, it covers a circular saturation point of about a 7-inch circle. Eight hundred grains, remember, equals a .458 PLUS a .375 at point blank, and you've got two barrels of the stuff, minimum."
Btw, like your videos Bapple!
"I would like to mention one very important factor in choosing a buckshot load for dangerous game, and that concerns shot size selection. Most people would automatically pick 00 buck simply becuause it's so well know through TV westerns. In fact, the 12-pellet 12-gauge "baby magnum" load of 00 is considerably inferior to the same maximum powder loading of small NO. 1 buckshot in the same shell. The difference lies in the simple and astonishingly obvious fact that at .33 caliber, 00 buck is so large in the shell that there is much wasted space that could otherwise be filled with lead if the bearing surfaces of the big, round pellets didn't have to come into contact with each other. But they must. No. 1 buck is .30 caliber, only ten percent less in diameter than 00 buck and but thirteen grains per pellet lighter. However, because of the way the pellet mass fits into the shotshell, the same shell can fire an incredible seventy-five percent more pellets than the Magnum 00 load! What this means is that when you need help in a big way, you're launching eight hundred grains of lead at better than three thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle with No. 1 buck compared with a bit over six hundred grains and not quite twenty-four hundred foot-pounds with the 00 buck. If you don't reckon that can make a significant difference, you've never had something try to eat you.
One might also bear in mind that eight hundred grains of lead in a swarm has the individual pellet impact area of an umbrella, for even though still in a solid mass at more or less ten yards, it covers a circular saturation point of about a 7-inch circle. Eight hundred grains, remember, equals a .458 PLUS a .375 at point blank, and you've got two barrels of the stuff, minimum."
Btw, like your videos Bapple!
Posted on 3/21/13 at 9:24 pm to bapple
So penetration through 4 layers of denim, through ribs, and through 6" of solid meat is not sufficient? Lol.
Or through double layered sheetrock an 5" into ballistic gel is not sufficient?
And unlike the buck shot it does not go through the wall behind the target.
I understand the above stories of shooting deer at the up close and personal distance of 20 yards or slightly more being less than lethal with bird shot. I would agree if the average HD shot in your home is of similar distance (60+ feet) you should not use bird shot. If course if your rooms are that big you probably have a security detail.
For up close and personal home defense, 5 yards and under, I have yet to hear a valid argument or for that matter see sufficient proof that a 12 gauge bird shot load is insufficient. Considering the additional advantage that bird shot will not traverse multiple interior walls I actually see this s a preferred shotgun round for HD.
Or through double layered sheetrock an 5" into ballistic gel is not sufficient?
And unlike the buck shot it does not go through the wall behind the target.
I understand the above stories of shooting deer at the up close and personal distance of 20 yards or slightly more being less than lethal with bird shot. I would agree if the average HD shot in your home is of similar distance (60+ feet) you should not use bird shot. If course if your rooms are that big you probably have a security detail.
For up close and personal home defense, 5 yards and under, I have yet to hear a valid argument or for that matter see sufficient proof that a 12 gauge bird shot load is insufficient. Considering the additional advantage that bird shot will not traverse multiple interior walls I actually see this s a preferred shotgun round for HD.
Posted on 3/21/13 at 9:40 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Or through double layered sheetrock an 5" into ballistic gel is not sufficient?
Well, no not for me. That isn't nearly enough to actually hit vitals. I know, the pellets were slowed down from busting through the wall. Still, the farther the pellets fly, the less energy they carry. And the smaller the pellets are, the less inertia they have. Like rompus said, I want to stop the guy no questions asked. I don't want it to pepper him and not do any stopping.
Like I annotated in my video, if you're relying on the perp's PERCEPTION of PAIN, that isn't enough for me. I would rather do REAL damage and hit the vitals with force. If I take a shot down my hallway with birdshot and he's on bath salts, his perception of pain is near zero (or hallucinogenic) and I have done ZERO damage to his vitals. This is why I don't like birdshot for HD.
quote:
For up close and personal home defense, 5 yards and under, I have yet to hear a valid argument or for that matter see sufficient proof that a 12 gauge bird shot load is insufficient. Considering the additional advantage that bird shot will not traverse multiple interior walls I actually see this s a preferred shotgun round for HD.
For up close and personal, sure. But why limit myself to that one variable? Why not use a load that encompasses other ones too? This is why I don't favor birdshot. It is good for up close, and nothing else. I don't want to tell the perp to stand there and let me get closer. I want to be able to reach out and stop him.
Then again, it is up to the individual. If you're comfortable using birdshot, there's nothing wrong with it. I just happen to think it's not ideal and I use a different shell.
And 10MTN, I agree with you as well. If I had seen #1 buck on the shelf when I got these rounds, I would've gotten them instead. I just need to buy some next time I'm at the store. I wouldn't imagine buckshot isn't sold out like 9mm is.
This post was edited on 3/21/13 at 9:42 pm
Posted on 3/21/13 at 9:46 pm to bapple
All shots inside a standard house are going to be 15 ft or less.
Penetrating trauma becomes potentially lethal when depth is over 3" .
Denim, ribs, and through 6" solid meat is way more than 3"
As someone who has had his hands inside a wound created by 12 gauge bird shot at 12 ft trust me it is devastating to tissue and organs.
Penetrating trauma becomes potentially lethal when depth is over 3" .
Denim, ribs, and through 6" solid meat is way more than 3"
As someone who has had his hands inside a wound created by 12 gauge bird shot at 12 ft trust me it is devastating to tissue and organs.
Posted on 3/21/13 at 10:03 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
All shots inside a standard house are going to be 15 ft or less.
Again, this is standardized. I want to have the greatest possible advantage at nearly ANY indoor distance, not just within 15 feet.
quote:
As someone who has had his hands inside a wound created by 12 gauge bird shot at 12 ft trust me it is devastating to tissue and organs.
I definitely believe you. I just would much rather have greater muzzle energy and greater penetration. Birdshot will do the job with the right variables, whereas buckshot will do the deed much more often.
The buckshot fully exiting with enough force to injure another person is a small chance. That is what a slug would do.
Here's the test that did it for me:
TNoutdoors9
Go to the 4:20ish mark and you can see the penetration depths of all those projectiles. I will take that over birdshot all day long and on holidays.
Posted on 3/21/13 at 10:53 pm to bapple
quote:
Birdshot will do the job with the right variables, whereas buckshot will do the deed much more often.
Amen brotha!
Full frontal shot with birdshot. Yeah, probably will get the job done. But that ain't how it always goes down.
I'm sure some of you are familiar with the FBI 12" standard penetration requirements. If not, read up on it. There is a reason for this requirement. Not all shootings happen with the BG standing full frontal like a silhouette target at the range.
12" takes in account odd angles, shooting through bone and gives you the best odds of reaching the vitals in most situations.
If the round you are using cannot achieve 12" of penetration, you are using a less than ideal round. This applies to not only hanguns but shotguns, rifles, etc.
Birdshot will not meet this standard. Buckshot will.
I know birdshot is devastating in certain situations. We had a neighbor once who stuck a 12 gauge in his mouth and pulled the trigger. It was loaded with birdshot. His head exploded like a pumpkin. My grandpa was the one who found him and it wasn't pretty to say the least. But that was at point blank range...
Posted on 3/21/13 at 10:58 pm to rompus
quote:
But that was at point blank range...
This is the thing.
An ounce of payload in birdshot form is much different than an ounce of shot in buckshot form. The buckshot carries its momentum downrange much better. It's all down to the basics of physics and the principle of inertia. The buckshot stays in motion over a longer distance because it has greater mass.
Of course when the distance is about 1/8 of an inch, it doesn't really matter - they'll do the same thing.
quote:
Birdshot for HD? (I'm on a roll)
quote:
Birdshot will do the job with the right variables, whereas buckshot will do the deed much more often.
Amen brotha!
Full frontal shot with birdshot. Yeah, probably will get the job done. But that ain't how it always goes down.
This post was edited on 3/21/13 at 10:59 pm
Posted on 3/21/13 at 11:30 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
Penetrating trauma becomes potentially lethal when depth is over 3."
Heaven forbid if I EVER have to shoot another person in defending my life of the life of someone else, but if I do, I want to be assured that my load will have an extremely HIGH probability of creating a lethal wound; I don't want to have to rely on a potentially lethal wound.
quote:
Denim, ribs, and through 6" solid meat is way more than 3"
The FBI's standard for minimum penetration for a self defense load is 12." The International Wound Ballistics Association's standard is 12.5-14". I don't see why I should be satisfied w/ a load that will penetrate half as deep. I'm not aware of respected organizations recommending loads that produce 6" of penetration.
quote:
As someone who has had his hands inside a wound created by 12 gauge bird shot at 12 ft trust me it is devastating to tissue and organs.
I don't doubt the type of damage you describe can result from bird shot under the right conditions. To me, the issue is using a load that will penetrate sufficiently to RELIABLY produce a wound that will quickly stop the fight. Under certain circumstance, less than 12" of penetration will not reliably result in a sufficient wound. If ones only shot at the bad guy is from the side so that the chest is obscured by his upper arm, I want more than 6" of penetration. If one is content w/ a wound that's only 6" deep, I have no problem for them as that's their decision. For me, I want a minimum of 12" penetration.
The only possible circumstances where I might consider using birdshot for home SD would be if living in an apartment or condominium. Then I'd set #4 shot as the minimum.
From Wikipedia: "The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue."
Posted on 3/21/13 at 11:40 pm to TigerOnThe Hill
quote:
TigerOnThe Hill
+1 on all statements
Posted on 3/22/13 at 12:49 am to bapple
Yep a round meeting FBI min penetration guidelines will certainly cause man stopping damage.
I'm not arguing the effectiveness of 00 buck. Hell if we want to go overkill why are you boys not shooting rifled slugs? And if penetration is all that matters I assume you all carry full metal jacket rounds for self defense. The perfect home defense round 3.5" 2.25 oz 10 gauge jacketed rifled slugs! Hell yeah! I bet you could get 6 ft of penetration with those bastards and stop 2 "intruders" wearing body armor standing shoulder to shoulder perpendicular to you at 80 yards across your living room.
I'm just pointing out that at the typical ranges inside a normal home (approx 20 ft or less) bird shot is a man stopper and can be lethal.
Gonna start trapping pigs again soon and will shoot caged hogs with a variety of loads to show comparisons.
I'm not arguing the effectiveness of 00 buck. Hell if we want to go overkill why are you boys not shooting rifled slugs? And if penetration is all that matters I assume you all carry full metal jacket rounds for self defense. The perfect home defense round 3.5" 2.25 oz 10 gauge jacketed rifled slugs! Hell yeah! I bet you could get 6 ft of penetration with those bastards and stop 2 "intruders" wearing body armor standing shoulder to shoulder perpendicular to you at 80 yards across your living room.
I'm just pointing out that at the typical ranges inside a normal home (approx 20 ft or less) bird shot is a man stopper and can be lethal.
Gonna start trapping pigs again soon and will shoot caged hogs with a variety of loads to show comparisons.
This post was edited on 3/22/13 at 12:51 am
Posted on 3/22/13 at 12:51 am to Bleeding purple
Absolutely, see the video in the first response of this thread. Birdshot FTW
Posted on 3/22/13 at 2:11 am to LSUbroker
quote:
I am amazed how you took the time to make these crap youtube videos.
you've got to be frickin kidding me
who the frick are you? please tell me you're trolling
Posted on 3/22/13 at 7:22 am to Bleeding purple
quote:
I'm just pointing out that at the typical ranges inside a normal home (approx 20 ft or less) bird shot is a man stopper and can be lethal.
None of us in the "birdshot inside" camp are arguing that it is the right choice for a 50m shotgun engagement - we're saying that at household ranges, unless the target is armored or wearing multiple layers of very heavy clothing, a torso hit with 7 1/2 will knock him down and have a high probability of stopping the fight - what it DOESN'T have the potential to do is rip through walls and injure/kill unintended targets, such as your neighbors or children. Once 00 or 000 goes down range - the potential for mayhem is high, within the lethal range of the round.
If you want to have buck or slugs late in the magazine, I think that can be a reasonable compromise. Once the first couple of rounds go off, everyone should be awake and taking cover. Also, if you're fighting in a home and requiring multiple shots, the bad guy has likely taken cover and you'll need the extra penetration at that point in the fight.
This post was edited on 3/22/13 at 7:22 am
Posted on 3/22/13 at 7:53 am to LSUbroker
quote:
I am amazed how you took the time to make these crap youtube videos.
I RA'ed.
Posted on 3/22/13 at 11:32 am to ruzil
quote:
I am amazed how you took the time to make these crap youtube videos
I did think this guy was being an arse also. So I ignored him.
Posted on 3/22/13 at 11:46 am to Bleeding purple
I admit I've never shot a person, but I've killed a 1300 lb cow dead from 6 ft with some 2 3/4" 6s.
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