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Antique (pre-1899) rifles, what are the useful ones?

Posted on 10/4/24 at 1:04 am
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
23518 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 1:04 am
Bringing this up for discussion, since I've picked up several over the years, including one recently.

For clarity- federal law considers anything made before 1899 an antique and not "a firearm", and Louisiana (and many other states) honor this.

You can locate and buy one online (or other method), and have it mailed straight to your door. No FFL transfer, no extra fees, no going to a dealer to pick it up. The most I've seen required is the seller wanting a copy of your ID as proof of age.
Usually, for models that straddle that period, you're going to pay extra for the antique, vs say something made in 1900.

Of interest, modern smokeless ammo was developed around 1890, so there's a small window of guns that can take "modern" ammo, but fall into this category. I've got a few milsurps, a pair of Argentine Mausers (m1891) that shoot 7.65x53. PPU still makes it. One's a sporter, the other is still in original condition. I've looked for an "antique" Mosin, saw a couple but too high. I just picked up a Carcano, full length rifle, made in 1895; PPU makes that too.

I know there's Winchester lever guns in .30 WCF (30-30), those I've seen have been near a grand.

I picked up a cheap Mannlicher 1888/90, which is sort of on the margins of this- supposedly good to go if in good shape, but you need to reload to shoot these (8x50R).
What else are there?
Posted by Loup
Ferriday
Member since Apr 2019
16945 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 7:43 am to
quote:

I know there's Winchester lever guns in .30 WCF (30-30), those I've seen have been near a grand.




I have a Winchester '94 in 30-30. Mine isn't old enough to be considered antique but I don't think design changed at all until the 1960s or 70s. I wouldn't hesitate to use one made pre 1900. The value is only going to go up, too. You can also find 30-30 ammo pretty easily.

The '94 was the first commercially made American repeater designed to use smokeless powder. They're awesome guns, John Browning design.

ETA: Just looked it up. The first design change came in 1964. They went from machining the receiver and other small parts from billet to using sintered steel and stamped sheet metal. Function, safety, and accuracy weren't affected but the sintered parts didn't respond well to bluing.

Just looked up my serial number, mine was made in 1983, the year after they changed to angle eject so that a scope could be mounted.
This post was edited on 10/4/24 at 7:52 am
Posted by zippyputt
Member since Jul 2005
7074 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 8:06 am to
How do you “verify” its Antique vs not antique for Federal purposes?
Posted by Bayou_Tiger_225
Third Earth
Member since Mar 2016
12809 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 8:18 am to
My Winchester ‘94 is stamped WCF on the barrel and the serial number dates it to 1937.

I’m in Louisiana and it annoys me that my rifle isn’t considered primitive, but a 2024 .35 whelen with a massive scope is.
Posted by Loup
Ferriday
Member since Apr 2019
16945 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 8:47 am to
quote:

I’m in Louisiana and it annoys me that my rifle isn’t considered primitive, but a 2024 .35 whelen with a massive scope is.



That's got me peeved, too. I can't use my 30-30 with a peep sight but I'm OK to use my .444 with a 4x12x40 Leupold on it.
Posted by Bayou_Tiger_225
Third Earth
Member since Mar 2016
12809 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 10:22 am to
quote:

That's got me peeved, too. I can't use my 30-30 with a peep sight but I'm OK to use my .444 with a 4x12x40 Leupold on it.
This to a T.

I have an open site rifle made in 1937 shooting a bullet that was designed 130+ years ago and that’s “modern”, but all these modern ballistically superior single shot rifles with scopes are primitive.

Hell a .35 whelen is a 250 yd gun. How in the hell is that primitive.
Posted by Loup
Ferriday
Member since Apr 2019
16945 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 10:36 am to
quote:

Hell a .35 whelen is a 250 yd gun. How in the hell is that primitive.


It ain't. I can load a single shot pretty damn quick if I have a round ready. They're just selling more licenses. At least in Mississippi you can use weapon of choice on private as long as you have the primitive license.


I just got the '94 a few months ago, haven't shot a deer with it yet. I liked the 444 when hunting in my saddle since it's compact. It ruined a lot of meat, though. Planning on using the '94 instead since most of my shots are 50 yards and under.
This post was edited on 10/4/24 at 10:38 am
Posted by DownshiftAndFloorIt
Here
Member since Jan 2011
72072 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 11:20 am to
1896 mausers are excellent rifles even by modern standards but I don't know how common pre-1899 builds are. 1894's are supposedly really nice as well, but I've never seen one.

Posted by guzziguy
Lake Forest
Member since Jun 2022
988 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 11:39 am to
quote:

1896 mausers are excellent rifles even by modern standards


This /\ /\ /\
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
23518 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 12:42 pm to
quote:

How do you “verify” its Antique vs not antique for Federal purposes?

There's several methods, all based on companies doing good record keeping.

Obviously the serial number is the official means. You look up a serial number, someone somewhere has a site (even for closed companies) listing what range is what. F

For the Argentine Mauser- it was made for, not by Argentina. It was made in Germany, so there's record keeping galore.
Also for the Argentines- company of manufacture. Ludwig Loewe stopped making it prior to 1899, that changed over to DWM. So if you find a Loewe stamped receiver, it's a definite. The DWM is a maybe, depending on serial.

For the Carcano, they stamp the receiver with a serial number (left side), manufacturer (top), and put the date on the right side. The one I picked up is dated 1895.

Some guns are considered "junk" historically, such as the Carcano. That might be a bad rap; it's got some things working against it.
1) it's the gun that shot Kennedy. Bad.
2) it uses a clip that drops free after the last round is chambered; not the best thing for a hunter.
3) caliber- 6.5x52. For one thing, there were people who disliked anything smaller than 30 cal, so they dismissed this. Interestingly, we're seeing a resurgence in 6.5 cal guns now. Also, the bullet diameter- this rd should be .268. Common 6.5 bullets used in the US were 2.64, so you wont get full thread engagement as intended.
4) sight method- looking into it, the Italians used a different picture. You "bury" the front post into the V notch, instead of both at the same elevation.
So if you don't know to sight it correctly, you're going to shoot way high. And if you don't have .268 bullets, it may drift a lot more than you'd like.

I'm real curious about the 1888/90 Mannicher I picked up. It clearly is an antique, it was set up originally for semi-smokeless (compressed black powder), was converted to smokeless. Some say the action isn't as strong, but there are others who say it's very strong and wellmade, and it's been rechambered to shoot plenty of other rounds. 8x50R is basically unobtanium, but people reload with other brass, including using 7.62x54R Russian. I've seen videos of people shooting that- it chambers, it's not accurate since the bullet doesn't fully engage the rifling, but there's also zero risk of gas pressure buildup for that same reason. You fireform the case by doing so, then trim the case back.
Posted by DownshiftAndFloorIt
Here
Member since Jan 2011
72072 posts
Posted on 10/4/24 at 7:49 pm to
What about trapdoor springfields? That'd be a cool one to have.
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