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Message
2
Posted on 7/10/10 at 12:56 pm to Charles Bronson
So you think its right that bc no fault of his own he should go to jail? Just bc the Doc may go to jail doesn't mean its right.
These companies have laws and rules in place. If one of the thousands of employees does not follow the regs and laws and an accident happens it should be the person who did not follow the rules and regs. Not the president who had no control of that particular situation.
These companies have laws and rules in place. If one of the thousands of employees does not follow the regs and laws and an accident happens it should be the person who did not follow the rules and regs. Not the president who had no control of that particular situation.
This post was edited on 7/10/10 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 7/10/10 at 1:13 pm to GREENHEAD22
Doc wasn't properly doing his job.
With great power comes great responsibility.
With great power comes great responsibility.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 1:33 pm to GREENHEAD22
quote:
Yes the Brits are arrogant assholes but that doesn't mean they need to go to jail.
If it is determined BP taking shortcuts cost 11 men their lives, no one should go to jail?
Posted on 7/10/10 at 1:41 pm to Charles Bronson
You don't understand what this really means. What it means is the the US government (via the moratorium and now this and not issuing permits etc etc.) has taken a hostile view of oil companies. If an oil company has a choice why would they do business in a country that is actively looking to try to throw the CEO in jail if someone not directly under his control doesn't follow the companies rules... makes a mistake... doesn't follow the paperwork to a T.
Do you understand that when there is a company involved in the chemical or oil business that has a 500 employees or more that it is absolutely impossible for humans to work under the laws of OSHA and the EPA without violating the law unintentionally frequently.
For example: Bleeds lines of any process line is required to have a metal plug in unless you are actively using that bleed valve for tag out or process work. There are probably half a million of these in a small chemical plant.
Equipment is taken out of service all the time. Plugs are removed and replaced all the time. If even one plug ever gets forgotten or pulled and lost and not replaced by a lazy technician then that is a violation.
Permits to do work for the simplest task are required and it is easy to overlook filling out one little blank. Maybe you pulled a tag after the work is done and forget that you have to initial for each tag that is removed and date since this information is on the back. You simply overlook it and put the permit in the appropriate storage location.
These types things happen all the time it is unavoidable and impossible to be in compliance 100% for these two things and 1000's of others that are even less important.
It may not sound difficult but it is it is impossible. So lets make it a criminal act!
Bottom line is the Federal Government has put the chemical industry on notice that they are not welcome. How would you like your boss to walk in to your place of work and say you better not do ANYTHING wrong because I don't like you and when you do the least little thing you are fired!
Would you wait to look for another job or continue working there as if he didn't hate your guts.
Do you understand that when there is a company involved in the chemical or oil business that has a 500 employees or more that it is absolutely impossible for humans to work under the laws of OSHA and the EPA without violating the law unintentionally frequently.
For example: Bleeds lines of any process line is required to have a metal plug in unless you are actively using that bleed valve for tag out or process work. There are probably half a million of these in a small chemical plant.
Equipment is taken out of service all the time. Plugs are removed and replaced all the time. If even one plug ever gets forgotten or pulled and lost and not replaced by a lazy technician then that is a violation.
Permits to do work for the simplest task are required and it is easy to overlook filling out one little blank. Maybe you pulled a tag after the work is done and forget that you have to initial for each tag that is removed and date since this information is on the back. You simply overlook it and put the permit in the appropriate storage location.
These types things happen all the time it is unavoidable and impossible to be in compliance 100% for these two things and 1000's of others that are even less important.
It may not sound difficult but it is it is impossible. So lets make it a criminal act!
Bottom line is the Federal Government has put the chemical industry on notice that they are not welcome. How would you like your boss to walk in to your place of work and say you better not do ANYTHING wrong because I don't like you and when you do the least little thing you are fired!
Would you wait to look for another job or continue working there as if he didn't hate your guts.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 1:57 pm to omegaman66
quote:
You don't understand what this really means.
It is more political theater........it litterally means nothing in the real world.
In order to be hheld criminally liable, you MUST BREAK A LAW.
The president and/or the whole damn exec. branch cannot MAKE LAW.
If something goes wrong, and people are found criminally negligent, they will go to jail regardless of what papers they sign.
Of course it will all be sorted out by the courts.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:20 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
Omegaman66
Thank you for detailing my point.
They are making the environment so hostile and treacherous that companies would rather go else where to do business.
Go back and read what I wrote. Yes the person who knowingly did not follow the regs and rules and caused it should go to jail, but that the head guy of the company should is stupid and wrong.
Thank you for detailing my point.
They are making the environment so hostile and treacherous that companies would rather go else where to do business.
quote:
If it is determined BP taking shortcuts cost 11 men their lives, no one should go to jail?
Go back and read what I wrote. Yes the person who knowingly did not follow the regs and rules and caused it should go to jail, but that the head guy of the company should is stupid and wrong.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:25 pm to Charles Bronson
quote:
Am I missing something here? Why shouldn't they be held responsible?
quote:
Amazing how conservative values have gone off the deep end to ignore why big business should be culpable when they mess up.
Either I am reading it differently, or you are missing the point.
The companies are ALREADY culpable. What he said is that they would make the president/owner PERSONALLY liable rather (or perhaps in addition to) the company.
That really isn't necessary.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:26 pm to GREENHEAD22
quote:
They are making the environment so hostile and treacherous that companies would rather go else where to do business
Exactly.......you would have to be an idiot to start a business in this sort of climate.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:26 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
If it is determined BP taking shortcuts cost 11 men their lives, no one should go to jail?
Depends.
But I can think of multiple circumstances under those conditions where the answer is no, no one should go to jail.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:28 pm to Charles Bronson
quote:
If the person dies, doctor could easily go to jail.
Not really.
But that is beside the point.
To put it in the medicine analogy: a resident kills someone. The family sues, not the resident, not the hospital, but specifically the chief of staff who other than running the place, had nothing to do with the situation.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:30 pm to Volvagia
quote:
But I can think of multiple circumstances under those conditions where the answer is no, no one should go to jail.
Also very true, people who are not familiar with the industry have no idea how many things had to take place and go wrong for this to happen. Further more, at least 4 of the men who died should have seen what was happening and took actions. Now weather they were not doing there jobs or for some other reason they did not we will never know.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 4:33 pm to GREENHEAD22
quote:
Further more, at least 4 of the men who died should have seen what was happening and took actions.
That was one of the circumstances....you should go on a witch hunt finding SOMEONE to punish because the people most responsible died and you need to sate your righteous anger dammit!
Posted on 7/10/10 at 9:25 pm to Volvagia
If that's the new standard, shouldn't the chief executive over those who had regulatory oversight and signed off on the changes submitted by BP that led to the blowout also be held to the same standard as the Company CEO?
This post was edited on 7/10/10 at 9:29 pm
Posted on 7/10/10 at 10:22 pm to GREENHEAD22
quote:
If it is determined BP taking shortcuts cost 11 men their lives, no one should go to jail?
Go back and read what I wrote. Yes the person who knowingly did not follow the regs and rules and caused it should go to jail, but that the head guy of the company should is stupid and wrong.
The part you are ignoring is known as 'corporate culture'. It starts from the top. When the people running an organization establish work rules and act to let all under them know that environmental concerns (in this case) are real and not just lip service, then it is difficult for individuals to break step and do things 'their own way'.
My employer does this. From top to bottom we know the rules and have work practices that exceed the government regulations. If someone tries running their own show they get shut down fast. The CEO doesn't have to know about turning every valve, but the guy who does it knows, as does the guy next to him and their boss. I work in a very regulated industry and we just don't freelance it.
Posted on 7/10/10 at 10:49 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
quote:
This allows the Govm to hold company owners/presidents liable for any thing there companies do
Am I missing something here? Why shouldn't they be held responsible?
seriously
so now if they frick up or something bad happens, those companies will be held responsible
OMFG, God forbid that someone is held responsible for something bad happening rather than the govt taking care of it
you republican/conservatives are retarded, you complain about this "socialist" agenda and then get mad when Obama wants to hold companies responsible for their frick up, make up your god damn fricking minds you hypocritical cocksuckers
Posted on 7/11/10 at 3:17 am to jrowla2
I can see this coming. I'm an OIM in China, my company sent me to Aberdeen Scotland 2 weeks ago for a course in OIM Legislation. The course is certified through OPITO International and is recognized worldwide as a training spectrum for oil and gas companies regarding safety regulations for both individuals and companies. Basically after the North Sea disaster of the Piper Alpha, the UK government initiated stricter regulations and opened the door for prosecution of individuals both onsite and in managerial positions. It is regulated thru HSE...like MMS on steroids. Had I gone to this course prior to DWH, I would have thought "this will never fly in GOM". But now...it is coming. All supervisors, managers and yes CEO's will be susceptible to criminal prosecution if negligence is proved. One of the HSE inspectors was a guest speaker and kept driving the point home that they WILL prosecute and have set up an offshore division of the Grampian Police to perform investigations. I made no friends when I asked why they were so strict, response was "when you see 167 people die from an accident such as this someone has to pay". My next question was, "why then did the same Scottish government release a man convicted in a Scottish court of killing 270 people, 190 of which were Americans, in the Lockerbie Bombing Case". Man that did not go over well...
Posted on 7/11/10 at 10:46 am to fearneaux1
Jrowla you are an idiot, also you need to go back and read what was wrote.
This post was edited on 7/11/10 at 10:47 am
Posted on 7/11/10 at 10:51 am to GREENHEAD22
quote:
when Obama wants to hold companies responsible for their frick up,
You fricking idiot, like I have already said, the company should be held responsible to take care of any accident and pay for it. But to put someone in JAIL ON MURDER CHARGES who had absolutely no part in the matter other than he owns/runs a the major corporation is wrong. Put the person in jail who caused it.
Posted on 7/11/10 at 11:33 am to GREENHEAD22
Greenhead, why are you yelling at someone to read above when you've made no real point worth repeating. You've said management and owners should not be criminally responsible when their outfits break laws "because they were not on the rigs" at the time of the accident/problem.
In other words, no one should be held responsible for criminal negligence when a major or minor disaster occurs because white collar owners and operators are above the law, reproach, and responsibility. At worse, these workers should lose their jobs, not freedom, when they are responsible for the death of people and destruction of the environment.
Did I sum that up for you nicely?
In other words, no one should be held responsible for criminal negligence when a major or minor disaster occurs because white collar owners and operators are above the law, reproach, and responsibility. At worse, these workers should lose their jobs, not freedom, when they are responsible for the death of people and destruction of the environment.
Did I sum that up for you nicely?
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